The Photography & Video Show Podcast
Join us on the first Thursday of every month for the latest photography and filmmaking news from the best journalists in the business, and exclusive insights from the world's leading image-makers.
Hosted by journalist David McClelland, produced by Sounds Engaging, and brought to you by the team behind the in-person Photography & Video Show at the NEC in Birmingham and ExCeL Centre in London: photographyshow.com/podcast
The Photography & Video Show Podcast
27: Bill Ward on Immersive, ICM seascapes, Fujifilm dials in the X-T30 III, Leica M EV1 controversy and first speakers announced for Birmingham 2026 show
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The Photography & Video Show Podcast, Season 3 Episode 4
Published on Thursday, 6th November 2025
In this episode: Award-winning photographer and actor Bill Ward discusses his experimental approach to photography, the synergies with his work as an actor, and his new book, “Immersive”; Angela Nicholson and David share why the Fujifilm X-T30 III could be an idea travel companion, and why the launch of the Leica M EV1 hasn’t been without controversy; and the first burst of speakers is announced for the in-person Birmingham show in March 2026.
Links:
- SheClicks: www.sheclicks.net
- Fujifilm X-T30 III Review - Digital Camera World: www.digitalcameraworld.com/cameras/fujifilm-x-t30-iii-review
- Leica M EV1 Review - Digital Camera World: www.digitalcameraworld.com/cameras/leica-m-ev1-review
- 3 Legged Thing: Axis Sling review: www.sheclicks.net/reviews/3-legged-thing-axis-sling
- Bill Ward Photography: billwardphotography.co.uk
- Order Immersive by Bill Ward at: www.kozubooks.com/books-new/immersive-by-bill-ward
- Shawshank Redemption 2025-2026 tour: www.kenwright.com/productions/shawshank-redemption-2025-2026-tour/
The Photography & Video Show Podcast:
- Find out more online: www.photographyshow.com/podcast
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The Photography & Video Show returns to the London Excel from 13-16 March 2027.
Welcome, show preview
David McClellandHello and welcome to the Photography and Video Show Podcast, your monthly fix of developing camera news and insights from the front line of photography and video. It's me, David McClelland. It's November 2025 and coming up this month.
SPEAKER_01There is a huge difference between your starting point and your finishing point, and often you have no idea what your finishing point is going to be. You get it from mucking about at your starting point. What would happen if instead of stopping at the edge of the water, and you I was getting some beautiful results, sort of using Coastal ICM and merging the sand with the sea. But what would happen instead of having to stop at that point, I just carried on and took the camera into the places that I'd been with the surfboard, essentially.
David McClellandPhotographer and actor Bill Ward joins me to chat about his quite literal immersion in his work and his new book. And a reminder that the in-person photography and video show opens its doors between Saturday, March the 14th and Tuesday, March the 17th, 2026 at the NEC in Birmingham. Tickets are on sale now. Okay, they've probably been on sale for a few days by now, but they are on sale. And coming up in later on in today's show, we reveal the first, what's the best collective noun for a group of photographers? The first uh exposure of no, uh, the first album, the first burst of amazing photographers and filmmakers to be speaking on the stage and sharing their expertise and insights at the show. That's later on, but first with a burst
Ange's stormy workshops
David McClellandof energy and insights to share this month's camera and kit news. It's SheClick's founder and camera reviewer, Angela Nicholson. Anj, how are you?
SPEAKER_02Hi, I'm very well, thank you. It's really lovely to see you again.
David McClellandYes, it's been a little while. It's been a little while since we've recorded one of these. But uh how how have you been? Uh the only updates I've had seen from you are that you've been in all corners of the British Isles doing workshops uh with with other photographers and weathering a few storms because we are very much in stormy season now, aren't we?
SPEAKER_02We certainly are, yes. I was in uh Glencoe with Emily Endine and some she clickers for a workshop and we had an absolutely brilliant time, but yeah, it was rather um it was rather effective, shall we say, by Storm Amy. And we were in our hotel watching the loch getting stirred up and water flying around everywhere by these horrendous winds. It was just incredible. And then it took out the electricity and that was going to stay out for a few days. So we had to reconvene somewhere else and we went to Perthshire and that was absolutely beautiful. We had a fantastic time. So it was a great time and it was you know certainly an adventure.
David McClellandEmily Nde, friend of the show, knows some uh dramatic uh dramatic environments in which to take photos of the horse uh as as well. And you you you were down in Brighton most recently weathering well, not not quite so much weathering, but there was another storm battering the British Isles as well.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes, that's right. So I was with Janina Wilde for that at the Wild Photography Academy, and we were um doing multiple exposure photography, and we arrived on the Friday to see the most stormy seas you could ever imagine. But thankfully things calmed down a little bit for Saturday and Sunday, and we had a glorious sunset on Saturday and a lovely sunrise on Sunday, and some really engaged photographers. So it was great fun.
David McClellandBrilliant. And this the this all sounds as though it's uh a deliberate lead-in to what we'll be chatting about with Bill Ward later on in today's show about dramatic coastline, dramatic weather, multiple exposure. Uh that's that's later on. But first, let's
Fujifilm X-T30 III
David McClellandhave a chat about some of this month's uh news, some of the new releases during October uh 2025. And well, let's have a look at a given that you've been doing so much traveling, a really travel-friendly camera, the Fujifilm XT30 Mark III. We're on the third mark of this now. What do we know? Again, for people who maybe aren't part of the Fujifilm ecosystem, uh, but are curious about what a camera might look like and whether it might fit into uh how they like to make photos. Uh what is the XT30 and what is the what does the Mark III bring to the table above the Mark II?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh firstly it's an APS C format camera, so it's got a really nice size sensor, so you've got good opportunities you could control depth of field and capture some really fantastic images. It's got an updated uh processor, so you've got better autofocusing with subject detection. The thing that really floats my boat is that um you now have a film simulation mode dial. And I find it sounds like a small thing because you can access those sort of things through the menu, but by I find by having that really accessible as a dial on the camera, it it kind of opens you up to more creative photography and you start to experiment. And I really feel this is one of the major benefits of mirrorless cameras, because you can see in the viewfinder what you're gonna get. And why would you not take the opportunity to therefore use the film simulation mode to create images that you know are are print ready, that you know you're really happy with before you even sit down at the computer. And I'm not, you know, a get it-right in camera type person, but I do like to know I'm heading in the right direction. So if I love to create low saturation, warm images that are quite bright. And if I can see scenes, you know, as I want them to look, you know, I'm heading in the right direction. But equally I can look through and think, mm-hmm, yeah, it's not really working with the scene, and I can switch to across to black and white. And you know, and then I'll get results I want. So I still do some tweaking post-capture, but you don't have to. And I I really find that it's part of the immersive experience, as we're on the theme of immersion immersion today. Uh it's part of the immersive experience of photography. It really pulls you in.
David McClellandAnd you're right, that that dial really has been promoted and it's right at the front on the top left as you hold the camera now. You can't miss it, nor do you want to. And I think there are 20 different uh film simulations in the camera. Plus, you've got the opportunity to create some of your own presets as well. And I think it does bring something different. You know, when you're out, uh, and as we've said, this is a great travel camera. Whether you're looking at an urban landscape or perhaps a seascape, obviously you've got things about exposure and focus and uh all the rest of that stuff going on. But then it's also very easy for you to think, actually, what's going to be the right look for this? Am I looking for a, and forgive me, I don't know the name of all of the film stock simulations, but are you looking for more of a blue steel, you know, you've got sky and you've got glass and an urban landscape, or is it more of a sunset or a sunrise, a golden hour type thing? So you want something a bit more velvety uh, you know, a little a little bit richer in in in the redder and yellowy tones. It's just giving you an extra thing to think about, but not in a negative way. It's an extra part of your creativity that you can get immediate feedback on right there in the moment, which I can I can see being uh incredibly exciting and uh yeah, um just bringing an extra bit of enjoyment into your shooting on location in the moment.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah, I mean I I really love it. Fiji films sim film simulation modes are really well respected for the the colours they produce, but being able to create something in camera which reflects your vision for the view, for the scene, for your and to create your images as you want them to be is a really powerful tool.
David McClellandNow, this is the Mark III. The Mark II had the same sensor, the same 26 million pixel APSC sensor. But what has had a spec bump this time is the processor, it's Gen 5, I I forget the name of the of the processor, but it's a fifth generation one. And what that brings this time is subject recognition auto-focusing, and it brings it in line with one or two of the others as well. So again, if you are uh if you're doing street photography, for example, and you're wanting face or you're wanting to track someone move across a scene, this is going you you're getting the smarts that were in maybe some of the larger, more uh expensive cameras in the range built into this one. The size of this is it's really compact, and what Fujifilm has done is complemented this with a new lens as well, uh, a 13 to 33mm lens that is an interesting. I guess you're applying this with a crop to an APSC sensor, so I don't know whether that's like 25 to 50 or or something. But it's an interesting kind of focal length. But it strikes me again for travel that unless you're looking at getting really, really close to your subject and doing kind of like wildlife in there, it strikes me as a really attractive lens to go with this camera.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I think the widest point it'd be more like uh it's closer to twenty, which is you know great for cramped interiors and you know narrow streets. And my view is if you're doing travel photography, then you probably you want to explore places and walk around. So, you know, a nice wide lens with a bit of zoom is is a really good option.
David McClellandYeah, things that it doesn't have, and I think this is the compromise with the size, is optical image stabilization in body there. So you are relying on the lenses, and that 13 to 33mm lens does have OIS in there, so that's going to be useful. Of course, if you've got other lenses and they don't, then maybe that's just something to bear in mind. The the phrase of 2025 open gate, uh, that's there for video, and it's it's quite a capable little video shooter as well, it has to be said. Uh, open gate 6.2k at 30 frames a second, 4K 60 frames a second. Uh, I I I love that. It feels like a really rounded, capable camera. I think the the one thing to note is if you are thinking for video, it does have a microphone jack input, but it you need an adapter for many microphones because it's a two and a half mil jack rather than a three and a half mil jack. But it's got uh HDMI, USB-C, it uses standard SD card media. There's a lot to like about this, and I think including the price, it's it's a remarkably well-homed package.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, to have a camera and a lens for less than a thousand pounds in 2025, it's very impressive. And it's that mini DSLR styling as well, so it's got a nice grip. And like you say, it's really compact. So I think it's a pretty compelling um option.
David McClellandYeah, so it it does have the viewfinder right in the in the middle there. We'll come to viewfinders again with another camera in just a moment. Uh just to name check the prices there, it comes in three colours black, silver, charcoal, body only is 829 uh UK pricing. Look, look wherever else you are in the world, but that that's UK pricing, which is which is fine. Um, but you chuck in that lens, that uh 13 to 33 mil uh XC 13 to 33 mil lens, and that's 999. So, like you say, less than a grand. The lens, if you want to buy on its own, is 329. So you're getting, you know, uh uh basically a half price, maybe less than half price lens there. Less than a grand for a camera with this, you know, that's being refined over three generations now, I think is a really, really good deal. And I expect, I I don't know what you think, but I expect this camera to do really, really well in 2026.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so. I'll know more tomorrow because I I'm actually getting a sample in to test and I'll be taking it down to Lyme Regis to shoot with it. And yeah, I'm I've I'm excited, I'm expecting big things.
David McClellandOh, fantastic. Uh have fun. I'm not sure we've got any s and name storms coming your way quite yet. Uh just just just finally though, on this before we move on. Um how do you see it fitting alongside the other cameras in the in the Fujifilm range? Like I say, this is kind of like entry-level APSC, but still very, very capable in its own right. You've got things like the M5 or the T50. Uh why why might you choose one over the the other? Or is it purely a kind of price and capability play?
SPEAKER_02I think the the biggest difference between it and the XM5 has to be the viewfinder because the XM5 doesn't have one. And you know, for some people that's that's fine, depends how you've come into photography, but for a lot of photographers that's a no. And I have to say I would I would prefer to have a viewfinder, so I'd go for the XT uh 30 Mark III. Compared to the XT50, um obviously it's got it's got the same size sensor, but it's a much lower resolution than the XT50. So, you know, if you want to create bigger images or have you know greater scope to crop or just capture more detail, then the XT50 is gonna be the one to go for. But you can't really argue with that price.
David McClellandNo, no, yeah, it's a it's a 40 megapixel sensor. And it and coming back to the image stabilization as well, and maybe it depends on whether you are looking to do some video as well and what lenses you may already have. Maybe that inbuilt IS is gonna be something for you, but you've got a larger body at the same time. So it you know, if you want a pocketable camera, then the uh XT33, well, you know, but maybe an early generation, there's some good deals to be had there as well. Uh it sounds like a bit of a slam dunk from Fujifilm. So well done to them. Let's let let's
Leica M EV1 controversy
David McClellandmove on to chat about another camera that's been, well, really making some waves on the internet over the last few weeks, fair to say. Uh and and let's talk about the big elephant in the room about it, because I think that is the main talking point. The Leica M EV1. Um the viewfinder. The viewfinder Anj.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
David McClellandLeica's gone and undone, some would say, more than 70 years worth of uh rangefinder heritage by sticking an electronic viewfinder in the EV1. Uh, why is that a big deal, would you say?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, if anyone's not tried rangefinder focusing, then firstly it's completely manual and you're basically you've got two images, two ghostly images, and you try and pull them together so they overlay. And that might sound simple, but there are times when it's a little bit trickier than you might think, and you know, depending on what orientation you're shooting, what you're looking at. Um and it is an art and it's probably it's kind of a mindful thing as well, because you you will really concentrate on what you're doing and you're you're composing your image very carefully and all of this sort of stuff. But I have to say, I can't remember whether I was uh still writing for amateur photographer at the time or whether I was had moved on to the future, but I do remember writing a review and saying, I wish that Laker would bring out an M series camera with an electronic viewfinder. And that got quite the reaction at the time. It was quite funny. And there's a lot of people who feel like, you know, it's don't mess with it. It's it's a perfect camera, it works really well, it's all, you know, it's mechanical and it works really nicely. But I just don't like rangefinder focusing. And the ability, you know, we're not talking about moving to autofocus, we're talking about being able to see your image in a different way. And you can you've got the advantages of an electronic viewfinder. So you can you can zoom in, you know, to check that the details are sh are absolutely sharp. And you can you um I assume that there's probably um You know, you can see it highlight the edges and things in red, so you can see whether they're gonna be sharp or not, and that kind of thing. But yeah, I th I think it's great. And they're not saying they're never gonna do another rangefinder camera. They're just saying this one has got an electronic viewfinder. And I think it's gonna be interesting to see how it sells.
David McClellandI agree, I agree. And certainly if this is dipping a toe in the water to see how the market responds, uh the market certainly has well, I say the market's responded. No, it hasn't. The reviewers have responded and the uh and the uh internet influencers have certainly responded. And reading one or two reviews out there, people seem to be at a loss. And I can kind of understand one of the angles here. Uh now I speak as a non-liker shooter, and I have again I will hold my hands up, I've never uh and people have said, David, just hire one for the week, just just go go out for for a week, borrow one, whatever, um, and and use it, just just experience it. I'm afraid to say I haven't done that yet, but now if anything, I'm more curious, maybe there's a bit of reverse psychology here, I'm more curious to go out and do that. But if the thing that made the M series from Leica that unique proposition was rangefinder focusing, and you you explained it very well, two viewpoints. It's kind of triangulation, isn't it, when you're kind of merging the two images over one another from what I understand. If the thing that made those that this this range of cameras unique and almost part of, you mentioned mindful there as well, part of the overall shooting experience. If that's been removed, then what are you left with? Well, you're left with what is a very expensive, and again, I know Leica people will pay Leica money, and that's absolutely fine, but you're left with a very expensive camera that maybe takes away some of the experience of using that camera. So maybe it's a case of hiring this camera for a weekend or a week or something if you have the opportunity to do so, and then getting a sense as to whether it's still going to be for you. But it's um it's an unknown, and whenever there's a big change from a camera brand, of course, you're gonna get reactions like this.
SPEAKER_02I I I think one of the things is that with a normal M-Series camera with rangefinder focusing, you can kind of make believe that you're shooting film. Because it still feels very much like a film camera. If you're looking through an electronic viewfinder, it's quite apparent that it's not a film camera. You know, it's it's a more modern thing, it has a very different feel, I suppose, or a very different look when you're looking in the viewfinder. But you still have Leica's build quality, you still have Leica's understanding of image quality, and you know, you're still using a Leica lens which has got that you know fabulous feel. So when you rotate the manual focus ring, it feels just the same. It's just how you achieve focus is different.
David McClellandAnd of those who have been hands-on eyes on with this as well, no one's complaining about the quality of that EVF. You know, is it 5.76 uh million dots in in that OLED? It's still that 60 megapixel full frame sensor. So the you've got all of the stuff that comes with the red dot, but just that different different philosophy, I think. Uh the price tag is £6,840, which many have been very quick to point out. If you're looking at a 60-megapixel similar, you know, equivalent camera from a Sony, for example, the A7CR, you'll get that with nominally the same sensor, I think, underneath it all, for about a third of the price, and with autofocus and with film capability or the video capabilities as well. But again, I I I'm I'm not a like a shooter, so I'm the first to admit that I don't necessarily understand everything that goes into why you would be. So that's that's for me to educate myself and for me to uh experience a bit more. But anyway, it certainly has been a story on the internet over the last few weeks, which is why uh I'm I I'm pleased to hear your take and that you've been down this path before uh and got a reaction last time around. So uh let's let's see how this one how this one pans out, like you say. Uh finally, finally, Anj,
3 Legged Thing Axis Sling
David McClellanduh moving away from well, strictly from cameras themselves to some of the equipment that that we use around this. You've been having some fun with some three-legged things recently, haven't you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so three-legged thing brought out a new range of straps. They're on Kickstarter, and I think they were funded with in a remarkably quick uh bit of time. But um you know that this they're gonna be coming to market soon, or it might be early 26 actually, but they're still available to to pre-order. And what's really clever about them, um they use this this quick doc uh or quick quick detach, sorry, system. And for a while Three Leg Thing had been putting these QD ports onto its L brackets and it didn't say why. And now we know why, because they were introducing these straps. And actually it's not just a set of straps, there's a bit of an ecosystem involved.
David McClellandSo if this is the um the attachment, and if I press that button, I don't know if you can see, there are some little ball bearings that kind of disappear in, and that enables you to if I could just snap it in to the listening, and in her studio has got this uh silver sort of sprocket thing that she has pushed on the bottom and then you've attached it to the plate on the bottom of a pretty beefy camera there. You're gonna want to make sure that is nice and secure, aren't you? Gosh.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. So the really nice thing is that twists round. So when when you're carrying the camera, it doesn't matter where it is, and there are some other strap systems where they connect to the bottom of the camera in a similar way, but um they can untwist. They use the they use the tripod bush and they can untwist and detach. And there might be a set backup system. So I have a bit of an issue with that. Um and that I've you just push it to disconnect it and pull. And it works really, really well. And they've got a whole series of straps. So I've been very impressed. I mean, I've I've been using peak design slides and slide lights ever since they came out, and really had you know, other straps have come along, you think, yeah, okay, they're pretty good. But I've stuck with this mainly with the slide light. Now these have come along. I've always liked to carry my cameras the right way up. This you carry them upside down, but they're just so handy and they work so well and you know, they they seem so secure that I I'm a convert.
David McClellandWell, there we go. And the strap the strap its itself uh this is the axis strap, is it?
SPEAKER_02So that they've got several straps. I've got this here is the axis sling. So it you wear it across your body, you can attach it under your arm. So unlike some straps which can start to slide and rub your neck, because you can attach it under your arm, it it stays over. The clever thing is if you buy two, you can snap them together and then you create a harness. One on each shoulder. So if you've got two cameras, you can carry two. They also do, like you say, the axis, uh I think it's 44, 34, and 24, which are more traditional sort of straight straps with um a sliding uh adjuster into for for the length. And those adjusters are not really tight, they they really hold on to the strap so it won't extend as you walk along. They use the same attachment system. They've got another one which attaches, I think it's just axis everywhere that can attach to your camera bag. So if you wear a backpack, you're not having to wear a strap as well. You can attach it, you know, not across your body, it you attach it to two points on your uh on your backpack. And then there's the axis pulse, which is a wrist strap. And then there's all sorts of little other bits and bobs. They've introduced something as well, which you can actually attach them to the strap lugs of your camera, but I haven't I haven't actually seen that yet. That was one of these things that came on a little bit later. So I'm hoping to look at one of those.
David McClellandI'm not sure what it says about my social media feed, but I'm seeing an awful lot of stuff from uh Three-legged thing at the moment. And uh I like the sense of humour that they have and how they've been able to uh bring the feedback from consumers and the uh the fake uh stress that that causes the product managers there, you know, they've been asking for this, they've been asking for that. They're like, whoa, what what uh what else are they gonna be asking for next? Oh, well actually, we'll go away and they make it. So yeah, uh if you don't uh if you don't follow three-leggered thing or or their ads aren't making it onto your social media timeline, then do go and hunt them out because uh A, it's quite fun, and hey, if you're gonna watch adverts from anyone, then at least make uh at least make them vaguely relevant and uh at least vaguely entertaining as well. But as as you are saying there, Three-Legger Thing are actually coming up with some really, really good stuff which solves problems for photographers. Uh and if it gets the Angela Nicholson seal of approval, then that is no bad thing. Thank you. Brilliant stuff. Well, we'll have to leave it there for today. But Ange, thank you so much for joining us. It's been it's been a while since we chatted. I hope we don't leave it quite so long next time. But I know that I'll be seeing you in March at the photography and video show at the NEC. Can't wait for it.
SPEAKER_02No, me neither. But SheClicks is going to have an exhibition, we'll have a stand, and we'll be doing some talks on our stand as well. So I'm really looking forward to it.
David McClellandFantastic. All right. And if people want to follow uh what you've been getting up to, the places that you're going to, the cameras and kit and that you are getting hands-on with, where is best for them to do that?
SPEAKER_02I suggest you go to the website which is SheClicks.net.
David McClellandBrilliant stuff. And great to chat. Speak to you again soon.
SPEAKER_02Thanks very much. See you soon.
David McClellandBill Ward
Bill Ward Immersive ICM Seascapes
David McClellandis an award-winning British photographer with a body of work encompassing seascape, landscape, and the built environment, with more than a passing interest in the theatre. His experimentation with and practice of intentional camera movement has led him to explore and most recently immerse himself in his subject matter.
SPEAKER_01I would describe my photography work as improvisational. Um it's about going with whatever Mother Nature happens to serve up on any given day, on any given time, and going with it.
David McClellandMother Nature's a key word there, isn't it? Uh and I know uh improv is is certainly a uh a tool in your bag in many different ways. But let's let's lean into the Mother Nature thing first of all. From where you were born and raised, uh up in the northeast of the UK in the Northumberland area. Mother Nature's always been very close to you, I understand, hasn't it? And on on your various trips and on your various output now as a photographer, you're never far away. In fact, some would say you are fully immersed in Mother Nature.
SPEAKER_01Yes, very good. Loving your work. Yeah, yeah, very good. Yeah. Yeah. I I I it's the scale of it, the size of it, the feeling of it, and uh being out in it. And for me, it's it's trying to make as much of that as I as I can photographically and listening and responding. You know that the other thing that I do when I'm not a photographer is an is as an actor. And in the acting world, one of the first principles of acting is listening and responding, listening to what the other people on stage are doing and then responding. Uh, and that's the improvisational element of it. So I try very hard to relinquish as much control as I can and listen to whatever Mother Nature is doing and see what I can make of it. So that's Mother Nature for me is always the starting point. I try very hard not to impose my will onto her. What I'm trying very hard to do, if you like, is work with whatever it is that she is serving up on uh on any given day at any given time.
David McClellandActing is reacting, as we say. Uh and what correct, yes, very good. Uh and I I guess humans have tried and failed to impose some sort of order on Mother Nature over the years, uh, and w we we've always failed. I want to come on to you your work as an actor, maybe in a little bit, but coming back to what your output, what what your work looks like, and and we laughed when we said when I said immersive earlier on, and I I apologize for that. Immersive is the name of a book that is launching right now, where you were literally immersed in some of the most dramatic elements that Mother Nature has up her sleeve. Talk to me how this book that's very much been made from the ocean, how that came about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's a project. So it's it's intentional camera movement, which I do a lot of in the ocean. And so it's taking a moving camera into a breaking wave. And the the project has a number of roots. So the the uh it's an idea really that I had and which has become turned into a book. It wasn't an idea for a book, if you see what I mean. The book is come out of the idea, um, and it has a number of different routes. The first route for it would be um my own sort of um uh relationship with water and humans' relationship with water, which kind of comes from, if you believe in evolution, us being spat out of the primordial ooze, however billion million years ago that was, um, onto dry land. And in the same way that if you sit in a if you sit in uh in a living room in in um in winter and watch a fire, there is something probably in the subconscious linking you all the way back to being in a cave for us as humans many, many years ago. I think there's a similar thing probably going on with water. We all love to look at it, or most of us do as have some kind of relationship with it. And you mentioned earlier where I'm from, which is I was born in Newcastle upon Tyne, but I I spent an awful lot of my childhood going up and down the coast of Northumberland and Tyne and Weir as as the um as the as Tyne Mouth was then, and but all the way up the coast to Bamborough, Holy Island, uh, and all of the northern beaches up to Berwick uh and beyond. So, in that kind of a way, I've always spent a lot of time on or near water, particularly on or near the sea. And for me, it was on or near um the North Sea, but any sea will do. So I I and I've always sort of uh in terms of what I get up to, I've always been in water or near it. I used to do a lot of canoeing, used to do a lot of sailing, I've always done a lot of bodyboarding, and for the last 30, 35 years, I've done a lot of surfing. So, in that kind of a way, I've spent a lot of time in the water and and and love being in it. Um, and and so that's important because there's one thing to enjoy being near water, but for me, I've always enjoyed being in it more. And so um being part of it as opposed to on the outside of it, as uh uh instead of being an observer of the thing that you're photographing, but literally, as you say, immersed within it was very much the genesis of this idea. Um, and the second strand to this is the photography uh part of it. Um, and I first came across, I've been a sort of I suppose a professional landscape photographer since about 2009-2010, and uh landscape stroke seascape really, water I would say is my specialist subject. And I came across Doug Chinnery's work in about 2010-2011, um, and specifically, I read a brilliant interview that he gave in On Landscape, the the excellent um uh online landscape photography magazine. And not only was he showing intentional camera movement ICM pictures, but uh he was also in his extraordinarily erudite way talking about them. And I instantly fell in love with both things, not only how he spoke about the work that he was doing, but the pictures themselves took transported me to another place. And um, and so I started mucking about with, and I think this is really, really useful as a phrase for photography, and particularly my photography is mucking about, trying stuff out is really important in the ICM field because there is a huge difference between your starting point and your finishing point, and often you have no idea what your finishing point is going to be, you get it from mucking about at your starting point. And we've talked about theatre, and but theatre practice is very much like that in the rehearsal room. You have a starting point and you have an ending point, the starting point is the read-through, or um if you're if you're sort of making a new piece of work, it'll just be completely exploratory. Your finish point is what you show an audience, the bit in between is where all of the magic happens, and that journey is not linear. And what I love about intentional camera movement is its lack of linearity, if you see what I mean. It is completely at the whim of whatever starts to show up on the back of your camera. So I've been sort of practicing intentional camera movement since about 2012, and I've tried it on pretty any subject that takes my interest, and so I've done a lot of urban ICM, sort of dandelions, buildings, um, flowers, you you know, birds, or also whatever you bump into in a city, but I've also done an awful lot of it at the coast, which is where I tend to be drawn to. Um, and so I've been doing sort of coastal ICM for a bit for a good seven or eight years, 2012 to 2019, 2020. When I started to wonder, I started to get a little bit frustrated. You're kind of going, well, this is interesting. I'm making some very, very beautiful pictures here, and I'm having a lovely, lovely time being at the Cups. But I'm having to stop before I get in the water. So I kind of started to wonder, and this would be around 2020, middle of the pandemic, just before the pandemic, and then coming out of the pandemic, what would happen if instead of stopping at the edge of the water, and you I was getting some beautiful results, sort of using coastal ICM and merging the sand with the sea. And but what would happen instead of having to stop at that point? I just carried on and took the camera into the places that I'd been with a surfboard, essentially. And I was just I just started to wonder what would happen if. And so much, I think, of of photography is about what would happen if. And and if you were asking that question, then it's a pro probably a pretty good idea, uh, as long as you're not doing anything too dangerous, to find out what the answer might be. And I'm a I'm a huge fan of that, is asking questions and then finding out what the answer might be, not knowing what the answer might be, just finding out and seeing if it is of interest. Um, and so I started going into the water, and it to begin with, it was in wellies in the winter time, it'd be in bare feet in the summer, and then yeah, and then after that, it'd be just like in shorts, sort of up, so just ankles and then knees, then sort of in shorts sort of thigh length stuff, then going in and swimming trunks, so up to your waist, all of the time, incidentally, just with a straight DSLR, no waterproof housing, just with a straight DL. That's brave, yes, and just using the waves and taking the form of the waves as they come in and running a camera along them and just holding the camera underneath the breaking wave and just moving it away at the very last minute, holding it underneath, moving it away at the very last minute, trying loads of different shutter speeds, loads of different movements, all of those kinds of things. And I started to get some photographs, started to get some stuff that I that I hadn't seen before, either for me or I hadn't really seen it on uh on the internet or Instagram or anything like that, really, very much. So I kind of thought, well, this is quite an interesting idea for a project. I'm in the very thing that I love, and I'm making the kinds of pictures that I've never seen before. And I do have a thing about trying, just trying to make sort of not new work, but um stuff that that that um is of interest that you know that feeling. Doug Chinnery talks about a tingle that you get up the back of your neck, and it's that kind of thing where you go, oh, that's interesting, that's interesting. And I started to get a lot of that kind of work, and then I kind of thought, right, okay, I need to go the whole hog here. I need to physically get in the camera into the water because even though I was in the water itself, the camera was still outside the water, and then you kind of go, okay, so what I need to do is see what happens if I can physically get the camera into a breaking wave. But the other thing that I do for a living means that I we don't have a lot of cash, a lot of spare cash hanging around because the acting world is you know notoriously fickle. I've got two young kids and another half who was also an actor. So you you have to really be very careful about where you spend your pennies. And for me, particularly embarking on a project, if I had no, I had no idea if it was going to be of interest or not, I can't suddenly go shelling out thousands of pounds on waterproof housing. So the first thing that I did was I bought a kind of waterproof bag with a kind of ziplock on it from Amazon for about sort of 20 or 30 quid. These things are readily available and put a compact camera in it. And the compact camera was a Rico GR3 full disclosure. I am an ambassador for Pentax cameras, Pentax and Rico, part of the same company. So I had one of these and I was interested to see what would happen. It was my kind of low-cost kind of scoping of the project. What happens if I stick one of these things in a bag and punch it through a wave? And I started getting some really, really unusual stuff. And I but and this is the important thing. I loved how it felt. I loved how it felt to be out in the water moving and making images. And this for me is every bit as much a part of the project as anything else. I love being in this place and I love the freedom of it, and that kind of shows up in the images. And then I kind of thought, right, okay, so there is an idea here which is photographically of interest to me. How can I move this forward? So I I bought again some really cheap uh and don't try this at home because it doesn't have a happy ending. Um waterproof housing off the internet with it, and uh, it was about 40, 45 quid. Stuck my DSLR in. Now, what was really interesting about that was I I started swimming in with the waves and diving through the waves and literally physically sticking a camera where I would generally put a long board. That was the idea of the project. And all of a sudden, I started seeing the kinds of pictures that I had never seen before. And for me, I started getting really, really excited at this point. Then the housing leaked, then I broke a camera, and I'd already broken one previously holding it under uh a breaking wave and slightly mistiming it without waterproof housing. So it was starting to become slightly uh expensive as a project. But what was interesting about it was that I was getting some really unusual stuff, and um, and so I sort of went the whole hog. And they it it it because Pentax don't sell a huge volume of cameras, there is no bespoke housing for a Pentax in the same way that you might buy bespoke housing for a Canon camera, possibly a NICOM, uh that kind of a thing. So I went to so I bought um so I had a good sniff around the market and I got a kind of universal housing, which suits me really well for me, WA Marine, um, and uh stuck my DSLR in it, and I've been using it ever since. And what I like about it is it is there's very few bells and whistles, it's super basic, but then I that's what I kind of like. I tend to like things that are basic and that are uh quite um uh ergonomic, very few moving parts, very little to go wrong apart from it leaking. And one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given about waterproof housing is just accept that one day your your waterproof housing is gonna fail. And you you can do whatever you can to minimize the chances of that happening, but accept that is a possibility and then try and mitigate against it. Um, so what I tend to do is I use second-hand cameras to do this kind of stuff with a relatively high number of clicks, so that if the worst does work, it does happen, I haven't lost sort of thousands of pounds in hardware because I can't afford that to happen myself. So um, so yeah, so that was the kind of genesis of the project. So is partly to do with water and having a an affinity in that direction, not just standing next to it, but being in it. And then photographically, it's about intentional camera movement and essentially putting those two of my very favourite things together.
David McClellandSo much there, Bill. So much there. Uh, you know, when I was putting together my notes for our chat today, I were my starting point was that I didn't want to talk about Bill Ward the actor. I wanted to talk about Bill Ward the photographer, because I'm sure that you got the acting stuff all the time as a kind of way into the conversation and whatever. But the more I've learned about you and the more that we've just chatted just now, the more and more I see how the two are so complementary for you, so inextricably linked. You spoke about mucking around just there and about the rehearsal period. You know, that that rehearsal period, it's about play. And, you know, you are making choices and you're going with them. And if you have good scene partners and there's good complicity in the rehearsal room, then they're going with you at the same time. You are also, as you described it there, trusting in the process. You know, you've got this idea and you have the confidence in your own spidey senses that say, this is interesting, I'm going to pursue this and carry on making these choices and developing it. So, you know, you've gone from not even a script, this is a devised piece, day one, through to. And it's it's never the end of the project. I know that you have previews and an opening night, and eventually an audience needs to see it, but the project itself never really finishes. There will always be rewrites, or you know, a different director will come along and uh and do something different with it. But you've just described a kind of actor's journey in how you've approached your photography work there, which I find absolutely fascinating. Coming to the work itself, and we've spoken a bit about the process there, and we've spoken about how you feel when you're in the water. As I look through your work, and I I'm pretty sure I'm not the first person to make this connection, I'm getting big turner vibes from you. Uh and and it's, you know, it it's the okay, 200 years apart, and he's working in oil rather than rather than with uh images and light now. But there's this similar feeling, mood, feeling of of motion, of the kind of monochrome, but with these highlight colours in there as well, um, of both the calm and the storm, and somehow both. Of those being there at the same time. I don't know if you had any of those images in your mind, and you've mentioned Doug Chinnery there as one of your inspirations, certainly for the in-camera movement piece there. Um one of the things that I noticed about looking at your work online, and I'm not sure if it's how it's been scanned and put online, but for some of the images, there's there's grain in there. Is that was that deliberate? Is that part of the technical process of you of you making these images?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I it I I'm not looking for it, but I like mess. I d I I I I'm not after perfection. That's not what I'm going for at all. What you've just mentioned, and and thank you, and uh lots of very kind things you've said in there, but it is about mood for me. It's about mood, it's about feeling. My photography is unashamedly emotional. I start there, that's where I start. And versus the acting, incidentally, it's a yin-yang for me. The um the acting thing is quite extrovert, it's quite sort of whacking stuff out there towards an audience, if you see what I mean. The the um the the photography work is much more uh sort of inward, much more gathering Mother Nature and bringing her close to you. And so it's those two things are sort of opposite sides of the same coin in many, many ways. And so for me, I'm not starting with a finished idea in mind, I'm I'm looking to make something and seeing what I can make with what I've got. And so often I'm photographing in uh falling light, so I'm often photographing uh as the light starts to go. So I'm bumping up the ISO and I'm often underneath the waves, so light sort of um it uh starts to disappear exponentially, essentially, as soon as you go beneath the surface. So your starting point is often quite dark, quite quickly, incidentally, as soon as you get a foot or two beneath the surface, and I spend quite a lot of time there. Um, it is quite dark down there. So I so that's my starting point. So I I'm often around uh in a photographic sense, but technically I'm often around ISO 400, ISO 800, 1600, which in the modern world is not a lot, um, but uh but is is enough-ish to you should you wish to have some grain in there to keep it there. And I don't take any of that stuff out. I'm not after perfection, so I'm not running files through whatever it is, denoise and all of that kind of stuff. Occasionally I will do if I absolutely have to, but I'm trying very hard not to go there. I'm working with what is, and and and going with um what actually happens is a part of the process for me, and the joy of it. I'm not trying to make it into anything else, and just going with what kind of what it is and seeing what I can make of it. So and the Turner thing is interesting because actually, no, I I I wasn't an enormous fan of his uh of his work, but I have looked at a lot of it since I started this project and Turner in the North. I got a book about Turner in the North and all of his just extraordinary seascapes, and it and it's tricky sort of drawing comparisons with one of the finest painters that ever lived. Do you know what I mean? And it's me, little on me. But but um I tell you what I do really love about his his work is the feel of it, and you mentioned it, it's the mood of it. Seems to me his starting point is mood. It's not about a kind of a documentary reality of a thing, it's how it felt to be there, and that's what I'm going after. I'm less interested in what it was, and much more interested in how it feels, and the whole thing that he was doing, you know, the whole chaining himself to a masked thing, because he just wanted all of it, and just love that as a thought, and that's where that is partly where this project has come from. Just just being part of all of it and seeing what you can make of it.
David McClellandThe acting analogies continue. It's very method of him in that regard, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Well, yes, it is very method, and I have quite a lot of time for the method. So, just in terms of acting analogies, the method, which is from a sort of particular school of American acting in the 1950s, the actor's studio, but it was based on the work of a Russian theatre director called Stanislavsky, and Stanislavsky is taught at pretty much all drama schools in the UK, and I had a very, very sort of strong and deep grounding in it, and it makes a lot of sense to me. So I don't know whether I'm sort of um deliberately taking Stanislavsky and method and applying it, but I do love that idea to live it and breathe it and be part of what Stanislavsky would call the given circumstances and to be literally sort of have it all surrounding you and then see what you can make of it.
David McClellandWell, it creates an authenticity, doesn't it? In as much as you are able, with uh a sense of what it was like to be in that moment, then to tell that story to create that mood. And I think that, you know, if if you just go around copying other people's work, then yes, it might look pretty, but it doesn't have that authenticity. That's something that connects what it looks like with where it came from. So it it's important, and I, you know, Stanislavsky, I I think there's an awful lot that can be applied not only to the actor as as he prepares, uh, but but also to life as well in terms of motivation, in terms of intent. I I always talk about what's the verb that I'm going into this with. You know, whether it's a difficult conversation, whether I'm trying to reassure, or whether I'm trying to abolish, or whatever it is, what's my verb that I'm going into this thing with? That all comes back to three years of of Stanislavski at drama school. It does. Um you you've made some big choices. You've been brave, and that's another thing that an actor needs to be, needs to be in an environment where they can feel able to make brave decisions there. And you've made a number of decisions throughout your career, throughout your life, I I should say, career zer plural. And as is as is well well publicized whenever you look up Bill Ward online, this this current actor's artist's life right now wasn't how you started off. You started off and did a degree and started working a very different well, I say very different industry, let's see, but you started working in a different industry, but then there was a decision point that I would like to ask about now, I think, as to why working in in advertising and in account management and so on, why that maybe wasn't ticking some boxes of yours if indeed that was the case. And what what was the moment where you leapt over that hill, where where you made that decision to take a left at the traffic lights or whatever?
SPEAKER_01That's such a good question. Um quite a lot in there for me. Yeah, I I've got a history degree and it's a degree in modern British history, which is essentially Victorian history, British Victorian history. And history at degree level is much less about dates and much more about ideas. And if there was gonna be one kind of thing that kind of draws together everything I've ever done, it's to do with ideas and exploring ideas. And advertising is very much about that, it's about exploring ideas, it's get it's getting into the heart of a thing, it's working out what something is about, get the essence of a brand or a product and people's relationship with it, and then exploring it. And one of the things I loved about advertising was that which is investigating. I worked on all sorts of things cat food, Arthur's cat food, visa and Puma shoes, um, all sorts of different cabries, chocolate bars, all sorts of different things. But you're doing the same thing, you're investigating and you're trying to work out um the relationship that that brand has or that the people have with that brand. So you're just in you're investigating subject areas. That's what you're doing, and uh and trying to get to grips with them. And that's kind of what you do with a play. You investigate a play and uh and try and get under the skin of it in the same way. It's the same kind of intellectual rigo that you would apply to getting under the skin of a brand or a product or or a service. And so, in that kind of a way, they are quite related. But I'd always I'd always done a lot of drama. So at school I did a bucket load of plays. At university, I did 12 plays in three years. And so I I I was it it had always been at the back of my mind that it might be something that I might be interested in doing. And so after I'd spent sort of seven or eight years in advertising and I'd loved it, but one of the things that I found found was finding about advertising is the higher up the tree you go, the more removed from the actual adverts themselves you become. And which is the same, I suspect, in any field, and it becomes really about more about management and less about doing. And I'm a doer, I love making stuff, and my interest is in making stuff, not managing stuff. And I've never really been interested in money, it's just nothing of interest to me really. It's just about ideas. So for me, after I, the higher up the tree I was going in advertising, and after I've been there sort of six or seven years, it was about the next F is on the board. And I remember sort of having a conversation with my two bosses at the time, and who were lovely and uh they're magnificent human beings. And uh I was a huge fan of both of them. And um, but the question was so what you need to do to get on the board, Bill, is kind of file off your rough edges. And I remember thinking at the time, hang on a second, these aren't my rough edges. This is me. This is who I am. I'm just not very corporate, I'm just not that person. So, and the longer you sort of work, and even though I was at a very uncorporate advertising agency, about as uncorporate and as creative as you could get, it did get to the point where you kind of go, actually, I'm probably getting further away from the things that really drive me and heading more towards the things that interest me less. And so, and in that kind of a way, I've got this thing at the back of my head, which is I love acting. I've always letting. I wonder what might happen if, and then doing something about it. So I kind of put myself through drama school when I was 31, 32, and came. Where did you go? I well, I went to a place uh called the Actors Company, which is now defunct. It was a one-year course, um, and and uh and it was in Shoreditch, um, and it was run by uh David Harris, who's a brilliant acting teacher, hardcore it loves Stanislavski, and um and uh and and and and the the ethos was very similar to the poor school, which is uh uh another sort of drama school at the time of uh of this is 25 years ago. Sadly gone now, unfortunately. Yes, also gone, and where you could work your way through drama school so that when you came out of drama school, you didn't have a massive debt. And so for me, it was we did 40 hours a week at the uh at the actors company and on a and that was on a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. So we were working nine in the morning till ten at night. Now that doesn't suit everybody, but that suited me. And the way it worked was that you could work during the week, so Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday to earn the money to pay for drama school. So I came out of drama school with no debt, and that is really, really useful. And because we were on really rare as well. Rare, yeah, exactly. And so which gives you choices in terms of the kinds of work that you take, and also because we were learning at the weekend, we and and pretty much all drama teachers are uh self-employed, we were getting the best teachers in London. So we had teachers from Rada, Lambda, Drama Centre, all of the big ones. And so we had we we were really fabulously well taught, and I've always been very, very grateful for that. And um, yeah, so we so it was great. And and then it's a question of what happens next, and you just don't know what's gonna happen next. You launch yourself into the great white world wide world and and see what happens.
David McClellandSo that was your transition from working in advertising to uh becoming a jobbing actor, which is very different to working as a jobbing actor. Yes, yes. Oh god. But then the point at which photography's been there ever since you were very young, uh, but the point at which you decide to complement, as I think we've discussed now, your your acting work with the photography work, what was the leap there? What what enabled you to A make that connection that this is something that would be the yin to your yang or your or the yang to your yin, as you said earlier, and that B would be something that would, I guess, complement your life as an actor because when you're touring weekly rep doing whatever you are in a different theatre every week, apart from matinees, you've got a bit of time on your hand in these far-flung corners, beautiful corners sometimes of the British Isles, with you know, with an opportunity to do something. So, what was that what was that leap for you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a really good question. It it it came from a couple of places, and the first was I was shooting out in Canada in Montreal, and I w I was making a pilot for a new cop series um with Sarah Wayne Callies, um, who was from Prison Break, and it was great fun, it's a great piece of work. I I was kind of her love interest in the show, and we had to wait. We were shooting out in October and November, and we had to wait about five months to see it was going to go to series, and it didn't end up going to series, but we had a sort of five-month hiatus, it very nearly did, and we had a five-month hiatus waiting to see if it did. So I couldn't, and if it had gone to series, I'd have been on a sort of seven-year contract shooting out in Canada six months of the year. So it was one of those things where you kind of go, This is a big gig. So um, but I had five months that I couldn't really take any other acting work in case the pilot came to fruition. So, in that kind of a way, I was thinking, well, what can I do with this five months? And I'd always taken a lot of pictures. I did a lot of travelling in between um working in advertising and and come uh and going to drama school. I I did a lot of travelling, about a year and a half, two years worth of traveling. And I took a camera everywhere I went, film camera, uh DSLR, uh sorry, an SLR film camera. Um, and um, and so I I kind of thought, right, well, what I'm how about I do a photography project? How about this is what I do for this four months. I do a photography project. And I'd always shot handheld up until that point, but I thought, right, okay, well, let's do it properly. I'm gonna get uh buy my first tripod, I'm gonna get my first proper DSLR and see what happens. And so I did that and I set myself a project which was winter on the beach. That's that was the project, and specifically the beach was the coast of eastern England, and the reason why it was Eastern England was because I'm from the northeast of England, I was living in London at the time, and so the beaches I had access to were the East Coast beaches, right? And then I kind of sort of shuttled in between Northumberland and um uh London and Kent for about four months, and I was really, really lucky in that that winter happened to be the coldest for 29 years, and it there was all sorts of snow on the beach, and snow doesn't generally settle and stand on a beach for very long, and so I found myself often in the middle of blizzards on a beach with a tripod and a camera, and it's back to that thing about immersive, about being part of it. I kind of love those moments where if it gets really bad, you just turn your back to it and hunker down for a bit, but you're still out in it. I'm not a big sitter in a car, if you see what I mean. I like to be out amongst it and see what I can get, and even if that turns out to be only one or two shots because you've just got snow all over your lens, that's still one or two shots more than you'd have got if you'd been in the car. Yeah. So for me, that's kind of part of it, is just being out in it, letting Mother Nature do her thing and seeing what you can make of it. So that was the first kind of big photography project that I did. And so I was teaching myself along the way, really, and all along the beaches. And then one of the next professional acting jobs, the the pilot didn't come off, and so we weren't contracted to Canada. So one of the next big acting jobs that I did was at the Royal Exchange Theatre in Manchester, uh, doing The Lady from the Sea, which is you know one of my favourite theatres in the country, and Ibsen and just glorious, glorious piece of writing. And um, and I found myself there, and and two things happened there, which was one in the theatre itself, in the um just uh the the Manchester Royal Exchange has a theatre built within a building. So, and in the at the space outside of the theatre, but within the building, not unlike the curve in Leicester that we were talking about earlier. Um, and I noticed they were doing art exhibitions and photography exhibitions. So I had a a person uh a word with the manager of the craft shop and said, Listen, I've just got a photography project. I don't suppose you'd be interested in showing it here with you. And and they said, Well, we'd look at it first, and then they did, they liked it. And so that was my first sort of kind of exhibition, if you like, and and I had the work, and and again, I tend not to make work for things, exhibitions, but make it and then see what happens to it, if you see what I mean. So I had this project, and then the other thing that happened was while I was doing Lady from the Sea and because I'd just done a lot of photography, I took my camera with me. And exactly as you say, David, when you when you when you are touring or you're doing a piece, when you're rehearsing, you've got absolutely no time because you're you're rehearsing your learning lines, you're just trying to work out how something works. But once the show is up and running, you have a lot of time, more time than people might imagine. You've got eight shows in a week, so that's probably Monday through Saturday. You've got two matinees, and then the rest of the week, you have a lot of daytime. So what I suddenly realized was that I have free time to take pictures, and so everywhere I go, I do projects. I do projects on whatever it is that I happen to bump into. And while I was there in Manchester at the Royal Exchange, I did quite a big project actually on the canals. And the reason why I did a project on the canals was um I'd spent uh quite a lot of time working in Manchester previously on Coronation Street for three and a half years. And I used to walk down them a lot because they were very quiet, um, and so I knew them very well. But also, what was great about them was the history involved, and I've got a history degree, as we discussed, and and and and and the peace, quiet, and the solitude. And if my work is about anything at all, it's about those three things peace, quiet, and solitude. And all of a sudden I realized that here, right in the centre of Manchester, a hundred uh yards from the busiest, some of the busiest shopping streets in Europe, were these kind of oases of calm. And not only was there history everywhere, this is the cradle of the Industrial Revolution in the UK, but there was water and peace, quiet, and solitude to all of my favourite things. And you kind of go, brilliant, I'll do a project on this. So, and then, and so I did do a project on that while I was there, and then you kind of go, Well, this is just great, because I ended up with a whole bunch of pictures that I never had expected to take. And then I kind of started to realize that if I take a camera everywhere I go with work and photograph what I bump into, I'm probably gonna end up with an all all sorts of different projects. And and and and and that's kind of how I tend to work. I tend to work in projects, and I'll have a number of projects going on at any one time, and um, and that's kind of how it evolves for me, sort of photographically, and how uh acting and photography uh run side by side.
David McClellandTo begin to draw the conversation to a close, there's another thing that sort of unites these and and takes us on a nice sort of bookend, really, I think. And Immersive isn't your first book. I understand it's your second book. Your first book, Theatres in Danger, which r absolutely brings these two lives, these two worlds together. Tell us about the Theatres in Danger project, how it came about, what you were hoping to achieve with it, and what it looked like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it it's when the pandemic hit, and I was doing a show at the time, I was touring a beautiful uh piece of work called the Glee Club for outer joint, who were a theatre company I'd wanted to work for for years. Just love, love their work. And we were tour touring, and we'd got as far, we were on this our second venue, which was uh Theatre Cluid in Mould when all of the theatres were shut. And um, and ever since 2009, I've taken when I sort of basically started becoming a professional. Landscape photographer, um, I had started taking photographs of every theatre that I work in. So every theatre that I work in, I will spend the morning or an afternoon just taking pictures of the auditorium. And and and quite a few actors do take pictures, but it tends to be of other people in the cast and those kinds of things. But my interest tends to be, and it's back to the history thing, I have quite a it is with these beautiful buildings, whether they're old or new, incidentally, I have an interest in them and architecture, but I also have a an interest in the space and the silence. Um Peter Brook uh uh uh wrote a book, I think, The Empty Space, and it it and it is that kind of that sense of potential, that sense of possibility that these beautiful buildings hold within them, the kind of the cathedral of the spoken word. And so, in that kind of a way, I'd always taken a lot of photographs of theatres, and but I'd never done anything with them, ever, nothing. They would just sat on my hard drive, and then when um the uh pandemic hit, and all of a sudden, you you know, theatres shut, and because of cuts to the arts council funding, government funding, council funding, theatres have increasingly over the last 15 years had to rely more and more and more on audience revenues. So now if you shut a theatre, you're shutting off 90, 80 to 90 percent of their revenue stream. And all of a sudden, these theatres would have shut 70% approximately. The estimate is about 70% of British theatres would have shut for good by November. The pandemic started in March, and um, so that was really, really serious. So I kind of started posting to Instagram um photographs of the pictures that I'd taken of these beautiful buildings. And a friend of mine, Matty Graham, who's a brilliant um photographic journalist himself, he got in touch and he said, A, I really liked your pictures. B, there's a book idea in this if you're interested in making one. I went, Don't be ridiculous. I've never made a book in my life, wouldn't know where to start. And he said, Well, I'll help you do it if you like. And I went, Oh my god, oh, okay. And so he gave his time for free, which was unbelievably kind of him. And we sort of thought, well, what would be the point of the book? And I was I was really keen to try and put back into theatre at a time when everything had been taken out of it, and so um, so I got in touch with the Theatres Trust, um, who are a kind of arm's reach quiet uh sort of body who look after quietly all of the theatres in the country offering advice and and and money when they need, when needed, just to kind of I tied theatres over, uh, and so I kind of decided to make them the sole beneficiary of the project. So it's all of the money from the project goes to them and still goes to them. I've just I'm just coming up to the end of the second print run now. Um, and then we made a book, and so all of the proceeds for the book go towards the theatres trust. Um, and um, and but I still carry on it um with the project. So every theatre that I work in, you you mentioned earlier, I'm currently touring the Shawshank Redemption, and every theatre that we've been in, I've done a photographic project on while we've been here. We we tour weekly, so every week we go to a different theatre, and some of them I've been in before, and that helps you get under the skin of a place because you can spend a little bit more time, you've got the big ticket stuff, but you can just go after the detail, and then others you're meeting for the first time, and that's just fabulous. Where you kind of go, Hello, what's here? And you kind of go, and then you just you kind of it's back to that thing which is improvisational and just see what you notice. I talk about this a lot in like you know, I teach photography sometimes, and oh well, quite a lot of the time actually, and go with what you notice, and we will all notice different things. And the other thing I talk a lot about, not just about what happens if, but um, make sure you are in your photographs. That that is so so important for me. And and and I photograph things that I have an affinity with. I'm not trying to copy anybody else, I'm just making pictures that make sense to me, and I'm photographing for me and me alone. And if something wonderful happens to come from that, I'm delighted, but that's not why I'm doing it. So, in that kind of a sense, um, uh yeah, it's a very personal project, the theatre's project for me, because I spend so much time in them. But I love these places, and so just to spend a bit of time with the camera and no one else, um, it is is delightful. So, so I yeah, so that that's the project, and uh and it continues. There will be at some point, not for a while yet, but uh I'll do a second edition at some point and expand the collection. I think there were sort of around 40 theatres in the first one, and uh I'll I'll certainly expand it for the second one.
David McClellandAnd of course, as you rightly point out, theatres have been and are still in danger, and well, I I desperately hope that the theatres that you've taken images of in your first edition there that that people will still have access to those and it's not gonna be this vanishing list over time. It's good work you do. Thank you for preserving our theatres and and and helping to support them in that way. Uh you're gonna be speaking at the photography and video show in March 2026. I know we're still, as we're recording here in October, Hull is your is your current home for the week with Shaw Shank. I know we're still a few months out from March, but have you a broad idea what visitors to the photography show will be able to expect when they come and hunt you down at the NEC?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I'm going to be talking a couple of things about um first first thing about water and intentional camera movement and water and all sorts of different ways of thinking about moving a camera, all sorts of ways about shutter speeds and different gestures and different movements, because different movements with a camera will give you different things and then the difference between we've talked about its starting points and ending points. So I'm going to be talking about intentional camera movement and water, and I'm also going to be talking about, and we've covered uh it to a certain extent here, but the similarities between um acting and photography, and what acting, if you like, has has not taught me, but but the the the kind of the crossover of ideas between acting and photography and what we could what what we can learn from the acting world and apply to the photographic world because a lot of my photographic work is based on that principle. So I'll be talking about those two subject areas uh on uh I think it's Sunday, the 15th of March. And uh and if it's not, I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure it is.
David McClellandBill, it's been a real journey to speak to you today, and to think that my starting point for this journey was let's not talk about Bill Ward the actor, let's talk about Bill Ward, the photographer, and to see how far we've come in the time that we've been chatting today. Uh I've really, really enjoyed that. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Look forward to seeing you in Birmingham in March.
SPEAKER_01Thanks so much, David. An absolute delight to speak to you. Thank you. Thank you. Really enjoyed it. Thank you, and see you in March.
David McClellandBig thanks to Bill Ward. The book that we spoke about, his book, Immersive, is available to order right now from Kozu Books. That's K-O-Z-Ubooks.com. Link in the show notes and on the screen right now, somewhere for those of you watching on YouTube. We'll also put some links to Bill's website and to his socials and to his UK theatre tour of the Shawshank Redemption, booking until the middle of 2026 now, I think. Also in the notes that accompany this episode.
First speakers announced for in-person Birmingham show
David McClellandNow, right back at the top of this month's show, I promise you news of the burst of photographers and filmmakers who are now confirmed to be speaking at the March in Person show, 14th to the 17th of March 2026 at the NEC in Birmingham. The cat is already out the back that Bill Ward will be joining us, but also there will be landscape legend, Charlie Waite, fine art macro photographer Daniel Auquin, and so many other names. Rowan Elise, Richard Etienne, Josh Jury, previous guests on the podcast, Emily Endine, Tiggs Rice, Candy, George Barker, Roxy Hemadani, Jack Lodge, Beth Levin. So many. It's a mouth-watering lineup already, and there are more announcements to come. So head over to photography show.com for tickets, which are now available. And what's more, if you are a professional photographer, filmmaker, or content creator, then you can apply for free. Yes, free entry to the show. Full details on how to apply right there on the website. Get in touch on the socials on Instagram. We are at the photography show. I am at DavidMcClelland TV on there. You can DM us if you like. You can hook up on Facebook as well. And if all that social media nonsense is just too much for you, and it certainly is for me sometimes, then you can send us a good old-fashioned text message. Just tap on the link in our show notes. And genuinely, and I mean this, genuinely, we would love to hear from you. Let us know what's working for you. Let us know what you'd like to hear more of. Please just uh yeah, say, come and say hi. Anyway, for now, that is all. We'll be back on the first Thursday of next month with more photography and video news and chat. But for now, from all of us here, bye bye.
