The Photography & Video Show Podcast

25: Michael Wharley on the Black Mirror space set; James likes the Hasselblad X2D II; Fujikina London 2025 preview

• The Photography & Video Show • Season 3 • Episode 2

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The Photography & Video Show Podcast, Season 3 Episode 2

Published on Thursday, 4th September 2025

In this episode: Michael Wharley joins to chat about his journey from stage to camera screen, working with actors and making press portraits for Black Mirror on set of the USS Callister; Digital Camera World’s James Artaius has been spending some quality time with the new Hasselblad X2D II body and XCD 35-100E “trinity lens”; and Fujifilm's Amy Bates previews Fujikina London 2025.

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The Photography & Video Show returns to the NEC Birmingham from 14-17 March 2026.

Hello and welcome to the Photography and Video Show podcast, your monthly take on developing camera news and insights from the frontline of photography and video. It is September, 2025. I am David McClelland. And coming up this month Lots of photographers are used to directing models and models are quite self propelling. Yeah. You know, you pick up the camera and they will do. The, if they're a great model, the eight or 10 different things that they do, and the, the, the endless variety of energy that they bring, and if they're sort of a good model, maybe the four or five things that they can do that they're, are their strengths. Actors tend to be a little bit more, not hesitant, but you've gotta bring them out themselves a little bit more. And I've found, particularly when you are asking them to bring what they're doing, say on camera to a stills camera, you need to find some, some words or a, or a language that allows them to translate effectively. I'll be speaking with Michael Wharley later on. Plus we hear about Fujikina, London, Fujikina global photography festival, which comes to the capitol across two weekends later on this month. That's all coming up later on. But first joining me to serve up this month's smorgasbord of news is our very own head chef, editor in chief at Digital Camera World. James Artaius. Hello, James. Hello, David. It's really, really good to see you smorgasbord. You're making me want to run off and have a delicious snack right now, but I understand you have been snacking all over the globe recently, having very delicious treats. Oh yes. Well, indeed. I love my cuisine and smorgasbord. I did look this up before I put the reference in my intro and it'll become glare later on. But Smorgasbord is used across parts of the Nordics, particularly, particularly Sweden, but also Denmark and Norway. But it is that mixture of hot and cold plates and small plates I've been to. Spain for the last couple of weeks. Today is my first day back in the studio really. So I'm just trying to find my feet a little bit. Uh, I love Spanish food, but I love Spanish art. And in particular, we did a long weekend at the end of our holiday in Barcelona where my, uh, youngest daughter learned a bit about Gaudi, Anthoni Gaudi at school. And that's been part of a journey for the last two years to, uh, learn more about Gaudi and see as much of his artwork as possible. And Barcelona is a real home for him. You can't escape, uh, something like the Sagrada Familia or Park Guell, uh, and lots of houses, lots of lots of architecture around the city. And we did Sagrada Familia for the first time at the weekend, or actually on Monday. And, uh, it, it was an emotional and an enlightening experience. It really, really was. Have you, have you been to Barcelona? Have you done any of the Gaudi stuff? Yeah, I mean we've got a couple of, um, family friends who live in Barcelona, so I've spent quite a bit of time there. Last time I went to Park Guell, well actually mistimed our Eurostar and actually were dragging suitcases with us around the joint. Oh no. Which was not my recommended way to experience it. Um, Sagrada Familia Did it still have the scaffolding up when you were there? Generally, it's a, a fixture at the place. Well, well, yes. So as I read in one review, uh, if the Sagrada Familia is finished next year, then I'll eat my sombrero. And people have been saying that for about the last 30 years. There's still a lot of work to be done. And the tour guide we did, we did go with a tour guide, and I, I highly, highly recommend it. Actually, he estimated it's, it's about 80% done. And I did get a picture. There's a model just outside one of the facades of the overall building when it's, when it's gonna be finished, but then colored in differently is the bits that have already been completed. And one of the big challenges is that they've built four fac, uh, three facades. So each, each entrance is, uh, a different artist, Gaudi being the first one, but the fourth facade, which hasn't been started yet, as I understand, they need to knock down a block of flats on the opposite side of the road. So they're having to go through compulsory purchase, uh, to, uh, proceedings. And of course there are lawyers involved and, and all the rest of that. So it's gonna be a long time before it, it is finally finished. But in a way, for me, while the outside was, was captivating, it was when I stepped inside that I got emotional. I'm, I'm not gonna lie, I was, I was blobbing like a baby, pretending I had the son in my eyes. But it was, I found it to be, and I'm not religious, I'll, I'll say that here, but I found, uh, uh, a, a real movement, a, a, a real kind of spirituality or, or something, a profound, something that just moved me in a way I hadn't expected. Did you get to go in inside? Yes. I mean it, like you say, it's a very, very transcendent place. You know, whatever your personal feelings are on, on spirituality or anything else, and it's, it's, it's a very, very moving, touching place to be. Yeah, I was very, very moved by its beauty also, I fell into the photographer's trap, of course, of then trying my best and failing miserably to capture something of it, which, you know, I, I think probably you probably experienced the same thing. Lots of lots of folks are in there pointing cameras at ceilings and, you know, getting lenses out and things and trying and trying, and at a certain point you just feel this is really futile. Should I just be using. My built-in cameras to enjoy the scene. Yes. That was very much where I was and I was with my, uh, with my family and my 15-year-old daughter who, uh, you know, she's, she enjoys expressing herself through her social media, through Instagram, the kind of one social network that we let her engage with and when we're taking around museums and cathedral. But basilicas not a cathedral technically. Uh, actually, I'm kind of happy that she takes photographs of things as much as it's her. She's got a phone in her hand again, actually, if it means she's engaging with her environment and she's trying to, trying to take some memories away, and I'm very happy with that. So it was interesting seeing her go through the process of exactly as you describe, trying to capture some images and then realizing that it's just, it's just so difficult. I will, I, I did take some images, some of what on my smartphone, some of which. I was quite happy with, so I'll, I'll put those on my, on my Instagram over the next couple of days or so. I, I'll do a little carousel photo dump of that, but. If you haven't been, I, I highly, highly recommend it whether you are, whether you are religious or not. There's sagrada familiar. It's been, uh, been being built for about 150 years or something like that. Maybe we will be finished in the next 10 or 20, who knows? But it certainly merits repeat visits, I think. So I will definitely, certainly be going back. Have you been up to anything since we last spoke? I know, uh, August is a, a, a month for holidays, but also it's a month for gearing up for the autumn term and particularly all of the new gear that, uh, you get, you get sent to have a play around with. Yes. I mean, there's, there's some, there are some things as ever as, as being that awful teasey sort of person. There is some stuff we've got that can't talk about yet, uh, in a week or so. Um, if anyone's going to IBC, you should definitely go and see, you know, oh yes, the two big brands and go and see what they've got going on because it's very exciting time. Um, I've mainly been playing with, uh, with what might be my new favorite camera that's very expensive and there's a lot of megapixels. I mean, it's, it seems terribly boring, but that's, that's how I've spent most of my last month.'cause um, you know, I was lucky enough to play with this bit of kit for a month, so. Yeah, let's, let's go into it in that case. Uh, and I led with Smorgasbord quite deliberately in the intro today because, uh, I believe you have some Swedish delicacies to serve up this month from our Swedish friends at Hasselblad. What have you been playing with James? The most delicious treats. I mean, it's, um, I, I always feel a bit strange about talking about Hasselblad gear 'cause I tend to sort of proselytize it a little bit and sort of eulogize it because it is fantastic equipment. I'm also very aware that it's luxury equipment and it's very, yeah, in some ways very elitist equipment. And I feel, you know, the same way I feel when I hear sort of like a, people talk about like a kit. It's like, oh, well, you know, you're sort of talking down to the masses and that's really not the intention, but it's sort of, I, I think it's hassle badd equipment is very aspirational, but it's, it performs, you know, it's not just a, a shiny badge and a, and a status symbol and you, something you can sort of brag about. It's really, really fantastic equipment. And, and to that point, the new camera is the Hasselblad X2D II. Which sounds a little bit like a, a George Lucas character as we've, as we've giggled about, sort of off camera. Yes. Um, the X2D II 100 C, which is the latest version of Hasselblad's mirrorless medium format, uh, hundred megapixel camera, which stands apart from the 9 0 7 x and CFV, which is the equivalent of the old, um, film cameras, a hundred or 500 c sort of type camera shape. So this is the X2D II. Um, what is it? So for, for, for those who have maybe been on holiday for a couple of weeks, or like you say, aren't necessarily a hassle, blad isn't the go-to camera for them, for the reasons that you've just spoken about. Um, don't, don't sell it to us necessarily, although I think as you talk about it, then you that then you naturally will because your, uh, your passion for this camera comes through very strongly. But just, uh. Take a step back and tell me what it is. So it is, I mean I've got, I don't have the X2D II 'cause I did have to send it back. But I do have, this is the, this is the the base X 2D and I wanna show it to you basically.'cause I think a lot of people don't appreciate what it looks like or how big it is. So this is next to a Canon R five. So just so you can see it is not a large camera. Okay. Just despite being a medium format camera, which we think of being a sort of a hulking big thing that usually lives on a tripod in a studio setting. Um, the X 2D series is incredibly small, thin, beautiful light. Oh, lightweight. Oh, that is thin, isn't it? Really is. And it meant so nicely engineered. It might be the most ergonomically perfect camera I've used. I mean, it's so, yeah. Satisfying the buttons are just the way you would want them, but yes, so it's, it's a, a mirrorless camera like most others in terms of its form factor, but unlike most others in terms of its performance. So it does have the a hundred megapixel sensor. As we know, Fuji Films, GFX Series also have a hundred megapixel sensor. Yep. And I think GFX are actually 102 in terms of effective megapixel. So you get two megapixels more with Fuji. What you get with Hasselblad is, and, and again, I, I feel, I feel elitist saying it, but I do believe these are truly the ultimate imaging machines for photography. And the reason for that, first and foremost, is hasselblad's color science, which I have waxed, lyrical about before, but these are 16 bit files. I mean, it's something, it, it's two, two point something trillion colors. These cameras are capable of rendering, which is obviously very impressive, but impressive. And it's all well and good. What it effectively means is that it gives authentic colors. I mean, they're, they're. They're beyond film-Like they're beyond cinematic. They just, you, you could take a picture of a field of grass and it looks like a painting. I mean, just, just the greens in particular, which are very, very hard to capture for camera sensors just look magnificent. So you've got the hasad color science, but what they've done with the X2D II is sort of really up the ante. So the X2D II is quote unquote, the world's first end to end HDR camera, which in real time, end to end. Yes. So what that means is on the rear, the rear screen of your normal Hasselblad, it's a lovely, um, you know, couple of million dots. Um. Touch screen, but on the new, the new camera, it has, it's like 1400 knits, uh, 2 million to one contrast ratio. So you are getting a true HDR screen on the back of the camera, which means when you can take ultra JP ultra HDR JPEG and ultra H-D-A-H-D-R Hef files. These are all very, very big mouthfuls these terms. Um, you can look at the HDR output on the back of the camera, you can see exactly the, the, the extended highlights. So the X2D II has 15.3 stops of dynamic range, which is the industry best in terms of stills. Yeah. Um, and the expansion is really in the highlights. So you just get, if you've ever taken, tried to take photographs of, of a sunset, you know, lovely bright skies or of a campfire, and the the fire is flickering, you'll always notice that your phone does a better job than your camera. And that's because phones are HDR and the cameras aren't. Except for this guy, the XD two has the same HDR pop, the same HDR light sort of, uh, illumination that you get on your phone, which gives it such a different character. And of course, the fact you can see that on the back of your camera is great. They've updated the iOS app. Um, so you can see the true HDR output on your phone as well. So really at every point of access from the back of the camera to the phone app, to your screen, to the output, you get a true HDR view of what's going on. What if you're not somebody who cares about HDR? Does that really matter? Yeah. Well, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. So you've got a hundred megapixel sensor. There are other cool things going on. For me, the coolest thing is it's got 10 stops of InBody image stabilization, which again, market best. Um, and that's, that's stabilizing a gigantic, again, just if it's gonna register on camera, but that's stabilizing a gigantic, medium format sensor. It's one thing to stabilize a full frame sensor, an A PSC sensor, a micro four third sensor, but to stabilize medium format is quite something. Um, the previous market best for IBUs was 8.5 stops, which was the, the Canon R five mark two, and the OM system, om one, mark two. But yeah, 10 stops of stabilization on a medium format camera. It really does turn this thing into. Again, the, the, the old memory certainly for, for my generation is that medium format was a thing that lived in a studio on a tripod or you took it out on a landscape again, on a tripod. Um, it was a static, stable thing. Couldn't possibly dream of, like wandering around, taking street photography. Now that's possible. Yeah. And not just possible practical. Yeah, so, um, that, uh, a hundred megapixel, when you do have such a large sensor, it, it strikes me particularly if you are taking it out of a studio environment and you are handholding it and you are, you know, shooting nature, suiting, sunset, shooting, all the rest of the stuff that you might choose to do with it, actually. That means that that image stabilization becomes all the more important to make sure that you aren't taking images and going, actually that sucks. You know, the, it, it kind of works in hasselblad's favor to really level up the Ibis so that the images you are capturing from that 100 million pixel sensor are as, are as clear and as crisp as one would expect from a brand with that name, with that heritage. Definitely. And I think a lot of people fall into this trap. You know, we are, as photographers, a lot of us are technologists, a lot of us are geeks. We love specs, we love upgrades. It's like upgrading a pc, right? A new camera. There we go. New camera comes out with a biggest or a biggest sensor or more resolution. Think, ah, I'm gonna get that and that's gonna improve my photography. So you might get something like a Sony seven R or the new Liker or, and you go, oh, I've got a 60 megapixel sense now. Arent my picture's gonna look great? And in fact. If your camera discipline is not good, the more resolution you have, the more it shows up. Every tiny bit of wobble, every tiny bit of camera shake. And so yeah, as you say, the more the resolution in theory, the the better your pictures are gonna be, but also the more it will betray how poor your discipline might be. So having 10 stops on this thing really does prevent or protect you from. Some of the shake that actually you realize, you know, I've, I've used cameras with Ibis for about 11 years now. My first was in 2014, and when I go back to a camera that doesn't have stabilization, I realize, oh wow. I've become very lazy as a photographer. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned earlier, well, first of all. W geeks. Yes. Often that is the case. I, I'll, I'll certainly put my hand up there of, of coming at things often from the technology side. You mentioned a moment ago about how, particularly with HDR, there are some workflows, some things that we've got used to when having smartphones, HDR capable smartphones in our hands. And there's another area as well where I think the, uh, Hasselblad has also taken something from smartphones, and that's to do with the lidar auto focus, something that we have seen in smartphones for a bit. Tell me, this is an industry first, I think in the X two, in the X2D II te, tell me what all, all of those things mean. What that I just said. So lidar, I mean, you, you might remember the acronym better than Me. It's laser something, something. It's basically laser based focus, laser-based, depth depth detection, and focusing, um, as you say, smartphones been using it for a long time. DJI has been using it as well for its drones and cinema products. And of course, DJI owns Hasselblad. So that is a part of trickle down technology coming from that side of the business. The X2D II is the first mirrorless camera to have a lidar autofocus system built in. So DJI does sell, uh, a LIDAR system for LUMIX cameras, which is an accessory that goes on top. Um, the Polaroid I two bizarrely has a lidar auto focus system, an instant camera that costs $600. So you would hope it's got some technology in it. Yes. Um, but yeah, as, as far as mirrorless cameras go, it's a first, it makes. So much difference. It's hard to empirically test this because obviously there isn't another camera that doesn't have it. That's comparable jingle. Isn't this better in this situation or that? What I can tell you is that the X2D II, it has, um, it's got 400 and something auto focus points now as opposed to 290 something in the previous model. So it's got more AF zones, um, it uses. Lidar in conjunction with phase and contrast detect auto focus. So phase detect is the most accurate. Contrast, detect is the fastest, but also contrast, uh, it detects by. So, okay, there's for those, for those not with the power of watching this, uh, the, the video of this, um, I've got a white wall behind me. And my dark hair contrast detect will look for the, the, the greatest point of contrast between those two points. But it will constantly hunt. The plane of focus will go back and forth, back and forth. So if you're filming video for example, you will notice the pulsing and the hunting. So contrast detect is fast phase, detect is accurate. Lidar is particularly good in low light situations. So you've got this, this holy trinity, which might become pertinent in a moment. Holy trinity, of technologies that come together. And also this is going to rub some people the wrong way. The X2D II is the first Hasselblad mirrorless camera with continuous auto focus. And you might expect a camera that costs, you know, thick end of a few grand to already have continuous af. But again, because has bad cameras have been studio based, still life, yes, portraiture. Um, they didn't need continuous, they're not sports cameras. They're not meant to photograph people doing cartwheels or motors, motor sports, things like that. So. It didn't have continuous af honestly, because Hasselblad didn't have the technology to do so. But now with this conglomeration of, of LIDAR and everything else, um, now this is a system that certainly rivals Fujifilm's GFX system. It has subject detection algorithms as well for people, dogs, and cats and cars. So in practical terms, I find it as quick as the GFX system. Now, if you are gonna try it against specific kinds of subjects, I'm sure that GFX will be faster at doing, you know, certain sides of activities or sports and things. Again, 'cause Hasselblad is not a sports camera, but it's got that technology now. Basically all of this stuff, the Ibis, the HDR, the AF means that this is just a camera now that can kind of attack anything. There's not really a subject you wouldn't shoot with it other than sports and wildlife. Although with the AF now, you could certainly have a darn good go at it. So how many frames a second are you getting if you were trying to shoot something that is faster moving and uh, and what kind of, uh, yeah, what, what kind of speeds are you shoot shooting at? The, the speeds will be in inverted comm, it's three frames a second, so it's not fast. Oh, okay. But in medium format terms, that's not uncommon because obviously these are gigantic sensors and the driving AF is hard enough, driving gigantic glass elements and lenses are hard enough. Um, yeah. So yeah, a speed machine it is not, but. Again, for the sort of subjects you would shoot with a medium format camera, it's absolutely fine. You can shoot someone kicking a football. It's not, you're not gonna get a million frames like you would with the Sony a nine three. Um, but you can shoot certain levels of action. But again, yeah, it, it's, you, you would pick a different tool for that task, but you could have a bloom and good go with this camera. I wanna come onto the glass in just a moment, but just two things. First of all, LIDAR, you, you mentioned there where, where Lidar strengths up, we often see, or, or, or don't see lidar. I, I guess that's the thing. Uh, uh, driverless cars, this is one of the main technologies that many driverless cars will use. They'll have their little lidar sensors on there and because they are laser quick at detecting the depth, how far away, a bit like radar, for example, how far away something is. And it works in the dark. That's why it's a really, really smart system to use. That's, that's really interesting to see. If that trickle down happens elsewhere through the rest of the, of camera city as well. My final question for you though is, aside from the specs, what does it feel like to use, you know, we've spoken before about the difference between using a camera with a red dot and then a camera, which is essentially the same body and a lot of the same innards, but maybe a different menu system. What does the X2D II feel like to use in comparison maybe to some of those other cameras that you've spoken about? Sony's recent effort or, or the Fuji film, for example. It's, it's use a horrible industry term. It's frictionless. It feels like you're not really using a camera to capture what's in front of you. The, the, the, the, the, I call it hud, the UI is very, very minimal. You are not bombarded with icons and menus and goins and stuff that impedes your ability to take a picture. Yes. It's great to have, you know, the R five is a, is a fantastic camera, so it's so many options, loads of buttons to press, loads of options. You can get overwhelmed and sort of paralyzed by choice. I mean, just take that example of being in, standing in the middle of cigar, of familia, you're indoors. The lighting's not great, the lighting's moody, but it's not necessarily photographically helpful. Um, if I get my cannon out, I'm gonna be fiddling with all the settings under the sun, trying desperately to render something that's either well exposed or moody or something or other with the HDR R on the Hasselblad, that's gonna help me anyway.'cause they're gonna capture more of the highlights and shadows. Yeah. But it, it, it doesn't impede my ability to take a picture. It feels, uh, these are horrible, horrible things that people say. It feels like an extension of, of the hand in the eye. It just, it, it just feels like the purest way to take a picture and which is why I, I very much feel that this is the ultimate photographic machine. Haven't mentioned it doesn't shoot video hassle blinded cameras. Do not shoot video anymore. Yes. Right. So if you, so anymore they did with the original X 1D and the X 1D two. So the first generation of these, um, yeah, from memory it topped out to something like 10 80 P 60, and it was not a good 10 80 P 60. And I think at that point has bld and the user base said, no one's vlogging on this camera, mate. Just get rid of it. It's not necessary. It just looks bad. So yeah, if you wanna shoot any video with this, not the one for you, but photographically, I mean, I've, I've shot with GFX, I've shot with medium format film. I've shot with 35 mil film. I've shot with pretty much every format there is. I don't get the results that I do with this camera. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, that's not me trying to big them up and tell everybody that their cameras are inferior, but it just has a sense of dimensionality and texture and form and, and, and light and the color accuracy. Just beautiful, beautiful photographic devices. And I would urge anyone, if you do have the opportunity to go to a show, to pick one up to rent, one to use, one to borrow one, you know, just do for the experience. I mean, are they worth all the money they cost? Probably not. I don't think any camera is worth what it costs on paper, but it's a blooming wonderful thing to use and I think everybody would, would, would enjoy the experience just photographically. In terms of cost, uh, I'm seeing 6,400 grit British pounds, uh, on a price label on that at the moment, which is, you know, as for, for all of the reasons that that, that we've spoken about before when we've spoken about pricing. If the Hasselblad is the right camera for you, then you won't necessarily flinch at that price because you are, to use your words that you've used with me many times. It sounds like you're getting a lot of camera for that money. Uh, and yes, there will be trade offs and there will be other cameras that do more things, video, for example, but for the experience for the fields. And that's why I really wanted to ask you about how it felt to shoot with, to try and get that. And I, and I agree, the kind of trans, the technology almost becomes transparent because it's doing some of the work for, you still have that power, you still have all of the capability, you still have the ability to do stuff with it, to dial it to how you want it to be. But at the point at which you want to take an image, then it's the image. It's what's on the other side of the lens. That's the important thing. And you don't have lots of chrome dazzling your eyes and kind of getting in the way, disconnecting you almost from that image. I think that's what I'm getting from you. Let's talk about glass though. Let's talk about glass because as often happens, uh, it's not just the camera body that has blood has brought out. There's a another thing on the smorgasbord, which is the, uh, a 35 to 100 mil lens. Tell me about that. Yes. So this is Hasselblad's. Um, second, again, I'm using a lot of air quotes, quote unquote, on the show, and it's a bad habit of mine. It's a quote unquote Trinity lens, which does have an asterisk 'cause have a caveat by it. So it's a, it's the cd. So what's the trinity lens? Mean for the initiated. So in old money, a Trinity lens is a zoom lens with a constant F 2.8 aperture, basically. So it's a pro lens you can use come, come light or dark. Essentially. The constant and the 2.8 are very important parts of being a trinity lens. Now, unfortunately, that capability does not exist in medium format lenses. The, the, the lenses are just too big. The optics are too, it's too complicated to make a lens that fast. It would be physically and, um, economically pretty much impossible at this stage. I think so for example, the Fuji Film equivalent Trinity Lens is a fixed F four, which doesn't mm-hmm. Count as Trinity, so has Blas Trinity in this case, the XCD 35 to 100 is a 2.4 to four lens, so a 2.8 to four lens. So it does have the 2.8 in there, but only at the wide end. So it's a kind of half trinity, but again, in medium format terms, it is a trinity because of the conventional trinity just don't exist. They're not their unicorns. So the fact that it has it at all is a wonderful thing. Um, it's an equivalent, uh, 27 to 78 mil in 35 mil terms. So it's that sort of standard zoom range. Okay. 24 70 sort of range. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So 24, 72 0.8 to F four, which if it was a 35 mil lens, you might go, oh, that doesn't sound very exciting. But it is And has blood have kind of positioned it? Well, it's in the sales bump. I dunno if they're officially positioning it this way, but they're saying it, it can do the job of seven prime lenses and everyone says this about their zoom lenses. Of course this could replace blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Does it really do that kind of right? You've gotta bear in mind that seven has lad lenses cost you 20 grand. So if you can do anything close to replacing that, you're probably onto a good thing. Yeah. This lend is about four grand or so in terms of the performance? Yes. So it's, it's, it's about as sharp as a prime lens across the zoom range, uh, and across the aperture range. Um. Bit bigger obviously.'cause the zoom lens is not a prime. The place where it does fall short again is that F four aperture. So hasselblad's primes are usually about F 2.5. So at the wide end it's 2.8 and at the long end it's F four. I'm a portrait photographer, so my favorite lens is the, is the 90 mil 2.5. On this lens I can shoot a hundred F four. And you think okay, right, I'm gonna lose a lot of shallow depth of field there and everything else. You gotta remember that medium format sensors inherently render shallower depth of field anyway. Yes, yes. So a hundred mil F four doesn't look a million miles away from 90 mil, 2.5 on a, on a 35 mil camera. So can it replace all of those lenses? Pretty much, yes. If you were to only buy one lens for your has to add camera, it should probably be this one because it can do all these different jobs from 35 mil away all the way to a hundred. Um, if you did want to shoot something a bit wider, obviously would've to buy a prime lens for that. But. Again, this is, this is where the Trinity thing comes back to. It's supposed to be the professional workhorse lens, but I can, I can take this lens to a wedding. I can take this to shoot, you know, nuts and bolts for a catalog. I can go and shoot a runway, you know, a catwalks of event. This can be your one lens that covers all the bases. Um, yeah. And for that, for a Hasselblad camera, for the price point with the fast aperture at the wide end, it's a really impressive lens. And I think a lot of people are sort of sleeping on it a bit because the new camera is so exciting. But the new camera lenss together are very exciting. But of course that's, that's why they've released them together, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You won't get any change from a 10,000 pound note. None at all. Well, you two splash out on those. So, pairing these two together, you said that you've had some hands on time with the X2D II and with this lens as well. What have you been out to? Shoot? What, what kind of things have you been out to test this on? The first thing that I wanted to do was, was to do client, uh, some client work, some portraiture for two clients in particular. Mm-hmm. Um, because again, I wanted to see, first of all, I wanted to see what the, um, subject section was like in the camera, and I wanted to see can you shoot professional portraits at a hundred milli left for the answer to both of those is bloom neck. Yes, you certainly can. The results fantastic. So I did, I did a portrait shoot in the, in the woods, um, and some, and some corporate head shots from another client. Um, and then a lot of sort of abstract architecture and some landscapey stuff. But really the main way I used this lens was as a walkabout travel lens. And again, I'm not saying that an expensive hassi camera and expensive hassi lens are great for travel, perhaps, especially not to somewhere like Barcelona where you might bump into trouble waiting, something that expensive around, but just to. Describe what you can do with it. It's an this, this is an everyday combo that, oh, there's, there's some, you know, a great street photography moment. There's the decisive moment. The cardio brass, I would've liked, oh, there's a puddle with somebody jumping over it, or whatever it might be. All of these things are within your capability to catch between the af between the, the versatility of the lens. Um, so I kind of tried to shoot everything. I tried to shoot a smorgasbord of stuff with the lens, um, and again, didn't bump into anything that I couldn't do that with. So as hard as it always is to say this lens is worth four grand, the lens is kind of worth four grand. If you're in that system, it really is. James, thank you for sat our appetites with these Swedish delicacies this month. It's great to hear, and as as always, your experience of being hands-on with these and being able to compare the feels of them, as well as the output with all of the other cameras that you test as well, is. Invaluable. So thank you very much indeed for sharing. We'll put links to all of your thoughts on the X2D II and the XCD 35 100 E, uh, on digital camera world.com. We'll put those in the show notes. And of course, you've got many, many other thoughts, many other things that you share on the socials as well, including looking forward to IBC, uh, this weekend, I think as we record, isn't it? And like you say, there's uh, been a few, few hints, um, coming out from some of the big camera brands and some very shadowy type teasey images that are, are, are creating a lot of conversation online as to what might be being revealed, uh, over the next few days. But keep your eyes peeled on digital camera world, I'm sure, and, uh, on your socials. And well, uh, look forward to catching up on what you make of what gets revealed very, very shortly. James, amazing to chat. Thank you very much. Thank you as always, David. Great to talk to you. Portrait photographer Michael Wharley specializes in creating dramatic eye-catching images of artists from the stage and screen, but are found promoting. Everything from West End shows to Netflix blockbusters, and it's a world not at all unfamiliar to Michael, given his former career as an actor. Well, I'm a portrait and advertising photographer with a particular specialism in the entertainment industry. Hmm. You describe your work as bold, energetic, and cinematic. I nick that from your website, uh, substantiate with these things we spoke. I know, right? It's, it's dangerous. We need to update our LinkedIn all the time just in case. Some of the things we wrote two years ago no longer apply, but, uh, bold, energetic, cinematic. There's a sense of a, a sense of the theater in that kind of, how do you substantiate how you use those words? What is it that is cinematic or what is it that's bold and energetic about your work, do you think? Well, I think it's, it's partly from my background and my experience that I have an English literature degree, and then I trained as an actor and was an actor for a long time. So I think I bring a narrative sensibility to work. I'm not a very abstract photographer. You won't find me agonizing over the angles of a perfume bottle or, or a still life. I'm interested in people and I'm interested in, uh, people and their stories. And that might be in a personal project, telling the story of a person in a place, or it might be in finding the story, finding the drama, um, um, for a theater production or a TV show or, or in a, in an editorial portrait. So the characters of your subjects, but also sometimes the characters they are portraying as well that that, that they're putting on in that performance. And just speaking of some of the names, you know, all of this, but for the, but for the benefit of our viewers and listeners, Christian, stop. Kristen Scott Thomas, uh, Zooey Deschanel, Jim Broadband most recently for me, black Mirror Writer Charlie Brooker on a spaceship, uh, for the big launch of, I think it was season seven with Netflix, wasn't it? Yes. Those images were. Everywhere. And of course, Black Mirror is, is terrific, terrific. Drama has been for more than a decade now, I think. How did that shoot come about with, with, with Charlie and also with the, was it the executive producer as well? That's correct, yeah. The, um, yeah, so I've worked for, um, the, the photo team at Netflix a couple of times now. And actually I've shot Charlie before for a pre, for the promo for a previous season of Black Mirror when we shot. Okay. On a typical press junket says a, um, canvas backdrops in a hotel and you've got 15 minutes go kind of vibe. Yeah. So I think they knew that, um, that I could, could get a portrait out of him, could get something out of him.'cause he's not necessarily the most easy person on camera despite being very funny, very, um, very acerbic. Um-huh. You definitely need to handle him. Right. I think, um, uh, and uh, and Roy Henry at Netflix, um, called up and said, you fancy coming and shooting portraits of Charlie again for absolutely expecting it to be a similar kind of, you know, editorial brief. And then he said, oh, it's gonna be on the set of the bridge of the USS Callister. Um, which it's the first time they'd, uh, the first returning, um, episode I think of in, in Black Mirror. And they'd really gone to town in this set. You know, we went out to, it wasn't ELs tree. Where was it? I can't think of where it was now, but is it Shepparton? Uh, maybe Shepparton, yes, that's right. Okay. Uh, we're bridges in films as well, and so we go onto the lots and they've got the whole bridge built on this sound stage. And incredibly, the, the, for the first episode, it hadn't been full 360 filming for this shoot. They put behind the, the kind of the, the, the bridge window, the viewing gallery. They'd put LCD screens, um, so that, so that they could film 360. Um, uh, but it meant that we had a technician with his iPad sort of standing there and you could say, oh, just move that Galax. See like three inches to the left please. So really playing God, you know. Oh wow. And it was great. So we got about, I think we got about 45 minutes with Charlie and the exec producer. And it's a kind of a case of looking at the set, looking at what's interesting about the set. We have some control over the ambient lighting. Um, but I'd seen some of the stills that have been taken during filming, and you could see that the lighting was very toppy. It's not very flattering, so I knew I was gonna have to bring some light in. So in that case, it was. Bringing in some location, battery power, location lighting quickly, scoping out four, five spots where you could mix in the flash lighting and gel it to kind of cr And, and this speaks back to what you were saying about, what do I mean about drama and cinematic narrative, recognizing the quality of the space, the way that the set designers tried to use light, and then using my flash lighting, which is obviously a slightly different quality to the ambient lighting to mix it in with the control panels and, and whatnot to give it that kind of JJ Abram's vibe. Yes. Uh, we ended up the photos off to an excellent re toucher who went a little bit further with that kind of lens blare aesthetic as well. But yeah, it was, i I, it was a really fun one to do and he was up for, Charlie was up for messing around a little bit when, but they didn't actually use these shots. But when we were shooting the exec producer Jess, we got him outside the sort of the spaceship window kind of floating around as though floating space. So he'd clearly got relaxed somewhat. That's fantastic. And those images are, are really striking and I think you're right. It is, it is the color, the lots of, uh, lots of blues I think from those LCD panels. You know, I, I guess for, for a photographer with that lights, while you do have a lot of control over the set, like you say, being able to move in entire galaxies with a swipe of an iPad screen though, but because of those light sources being those spaceship control panels all around you. Mm-hmm. I can imagine that that would be a real challenge if you were just going on to set. Blind. So that speaks a lot to the preparation that you need to make sure that when you are turning up with that limited amount of time that you have, yeah. With your subjects, you are able to hit the ground running. Yes, I need that. I've got that gel. You've got a team there who can. Really execute to a plan. Yeah. And I think, you know, I, I think that's exactly right. I think o over time and through experience, and it's, this is particularly for, particularly for editorial work because you have such short windows of time with the talent, you know, it might be 3, 4, 5 minutes. I mean, we are lucky in, in editorial terms, 45 minutes with a pair of people is an, is an age really, you know, you might have a vanishingly, small amounts of time. Um, but you've built over time hopefully a very strong foundation of lighting technique and of talent direction and of, um, sensitivity to um, the environment and the qualities of light that you can achieve. And you're bringing all that to bear. So you are the serene swan. So to of tend going, Charlie, would you mind dropping your shoulder whilst you're kind of gesturing your assistant to bring the light into the right angle or whilst. Checking the exposure on the laptop, you know, with your assistant and, and framing up for the next shot, and mentally planning for the other three things that the client wants you to get as well. So, so I think the, the solid foundation that you bring over time really helps. And actually you'd mentioned when we were chatting before recording about the Andrew Garfield portraits that I took for Audible Yes. For a production of 1984. Now that's a great example of having, of preparation and of having, I think I took 36 frames over two setups, um, for that shoot because he was at the end of a long day of recording of this audio version of the, the George Orwell plastic 1984. And he's super professional, lovely guy. He wanted to be there for the minimum amount of time possible, and we had to, he'd finished his recording into the, into the audio booth, two lights up, scan. Uh, about 20 shots and then he's broken from that. And so we've got the shots that order will want of him by the mic, and then they want some nice clean headshot of him in a different room. So we run into the other room, set up two lights, and uh, and grabbed maybe another 12 frames of that. Happy with those. And I thought, I am. Damned forgive my language, but I'm damned if I'm shooting Andrew Garfield and not getting a portrait that I want to take. So what we prepped beforehand was a little tweak of the lights that would allow us to, and I, and I had a prism to hand. I was like, it will allow us, if I, if he's in the mood, if I can just get him talking for a couple of seconds, I'll get the assistant to feather the lights around. I'll change my angle, whack the prism in. And I got four shops that had this much more moody, sort of, almost spacey aesthetic that I felt really spoke to the character in the story. And again, that's talking about how do you bring drama, how do you bring cinema into it? Mm-hmm. Knowing how to bring his little techniques in to create a kind of a hazy atmosphere around him. Get him looking off camera. And I think we've got four frames and one of those got a silver award in the a OP awards last year. So, but that really was planning, execution, experience, talent wrangling, you know, kind of all encapsulated in one little 22nd burst. Basically. It's a lot. It's, it's. Uh, it's easy for us to talk about, well, you know, you've got the latest, greatest camera and it's got auto focus this, and it's got however many me megapixels that, and so on. But really that is just a fraction of the real world skills you need when you have limited time talent, high profile talent, whatever. But you need to get something in that 20 minutes, 45 minutes in an environment that you don't always have control over. Yeah. Uh, the, the, the, the mood of the talent or, or their frame of mind after a long day of doing what they do, uh, is also something that you need to manage as well. The a OP award that you, that you mentioned, or that, that, that, that, that was a finalist that, that shot of Andrew Garfield, that year winner, yeah. That wasn't your only showing there that year, was it? Uh, at the AOPs because, uh, on stage, Bristol, old Vic, your shot of the, uh, of, of, of the choir boys, uh, also picked up a silver award that year, and you described that as one of your most joyful projects ever. Why was that? Well, I think there's a couple of sites to that. Um, uh, it, it was, it was exuberant, joyful, and it's partly because there's a process. It was very coherent. Um, the more I shoot, the more, and the more projects that I shoot that are what I'm commissioned for, the more I enjoy projects where the idea, the realization of the idea, the execution and the post-production and the release of the image are kind of coherent and there's a through flow to them. So that, um, uh. Production image was created. It was a concept created by the come up with, by the designer Steph Pine. Um, and Vic saw that design and I'm really happy to, to go with it. You know, they, they cast, they had the talent cast, but they brought the talent in. They went to the, you know, they went to the proper lengths of getting good costume, good set. Um, which, you know, for theater, um, bearing in mind that the production image is, is often being the, the, the, when I say production image, I mean the key art that will advertise the show that will help sell tickets. Key art is being photographed potentially quite a while before rehearsals, and thus quite a long time before the actual aesthetic of the production is being, is being set. So the set, the set design might not even have happened. The costume designer might not have made costumes yet. So often, a lot of the coutre months, if you're photos, photographing actors who are gonna be in the shots are provisional. And sometimes you can see that when you then see the final show, you think, well, we were quite far off. It might have been a successful advertising image, but does it really represent the spirit of the show? And this one, they were kind of on it from the start. And when we saw the final show, I think we'd captured something that reflects the show. But in terms of creating that key art image, um, the actors who came in were just full of joy. We shot them even though it was actually a composite job. So we got this complex overhead rig, the camera's rigged overhead top down. So it, it's a top down image of your subjects. Lay on some. Grass. Uh, exactly. Yeah. Describe it to those who haven't seen it. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's, um, five school boys. They're caught on this summer's day. It's supposed to be a moment of, of sort of teenage, um, reverie and exuberance and, and joyfulness. And, but we are trying to pick out the stories between the different characters. So one is sexuality, one is feeling an attraction to someone he maybe doesn't want to feel, even though he's feeling it. Some of the others are just horsing around. So we were trying to draw out all those stories in the midst of a complex shoot right at an overhead shot. Trying to, um, trying to make people look good when you're shooting them from overhead, when you're sort of shooting up their chins is a tricky thing. So you're trying to prop up their heads and get them to interact. Being aware, all the while that it's likely to be a composite photograph, even though we're shooting them as a whole, you're unlikely to get everyone's expression in everyone's vibe. So you're kind of shooting them just very slightly separate to make the job easier for the designer. But the, the, the energy that they brought to the shoot, um, paired with the way that I lit it, that it felt like a naturally lit, sunny outdoors vibe just sort of all came together. And then the work that Steph, the designer did in post, um, to really, I think she added some leaves into the grass and she had to swap out some of the boys and move them around a little bit. But it really captured, I think, the spirit of the play. And, and, um, when I saw it, I thought, yeah, you know, we, we did. Well, that was the show. Yeah. And then from one type of theater to another, you made the promo, the promo images for super surgeons, the Channel four series, and that was at the Royal Marsden Hospital in Chelsea. And, and that set, well, it, it wasn't a set, it was a real operating theater, uh, in the background of, of your portrait shots. It looked incredible. What was that like to shoot him? Uh, uh, so, I mean, stressful and, you know, and, and yeah, I'm not afraid to admit, you know, I talk about being a serene swan and, and sometimes you can be a serene swan and sometimes, you know, you've literally, you you walk into a space and it's that that theater had been being used for like pioneering cancer surgery that very day. Wow. So we're walking in and we had, I'd say about 15 minutes before the first surgeon arrived. And so you walk into, I mean, if I would, do you, will you flash the photos up as we're talking about them, or will you link to them? I would love to flash those images up on the page. If, if we have permission from you to do that, then we'll course we'll gladly do that. Absolutely. I'd be glad to. Um, so you, you can see looking at the images, what a busy background it is, how much there is going on. And at the same time, an operating theater is arranged around a bed. And the bed is not there because the beds are only wheeled in for the purposes of the operation. So effectively, you got a space without a center, and obviously you're going to put the surgeon at the center of it, but at the same time, it's an incredibly cluttered environment. So you want to make an environmental portrait that shows off the space, while also also foregrounding the individual. And that is undoubtedly a challenge. Of course, medical environments are pretty horrifically lit. They're incredibly top lit, so no one's going to look good. So you're thinking, how can I get my lights in? How can I get a clip light in from behind with a nice warm gel? So I think in that setup, in those shots, we had teal gel to light the background. We had warm gold gel on them. We had the lights from the, the actual operating lights were actually just about kicking in a little bit, you know? Yeah. I, I, I think that's great how you've been able to reflect those lights and they are prominent in the background right. On, on either side of, of your center subject there, but they don't, they don't dominate it. It's absolutely your light that's controlling that scene. Right. And I think that's the, the thing I love to do. I love environmental portrait and I, but I, I love the control that Flash gives you. And I love the way that you can hero individuals, hero people in an environment with the use of flash. And so for me that's kind of em emblematic or it's, it's, that's, that's a kind of acme of what I try to do on location. Yeah. And, and some of your other work may maybe we'll come onto later on some, some of your project work as well out and about on the, on the mean streets of Brixton and elsewhere. Also, the use of the use of flash really to help your subject stand out is, is certainly part of that, of that drama and boldness that, that and cinematic feel that you create. Um, I just wanna take a step back though, if that's, if that's all right Michael, and, and, and hear about pre-professional photographer. Um, Michael, uh, you worked in the theater for a good few years. That's where your, your path and mind first crossed. Um. You studied English Lit, as you said, jobbing actor for a few years, for for six years. What was the jump though from the stage to the camera screen for you? What, what was that moment? Was it sudden? Was it gradual? Were you a amateur photographer? Had you always had an interest in creating images before you turned pro? Yeah, no, not really. I'd had, um, I think I went on holiday, I went Greek island hopping when I left university with a friend who had an SLR camera. And unfortunately for him, and sorry Richard, I spent most of the holiday using his SLR camera. And when the photos came back, there were very many dreadful photos. But it was the first time I'd ever had the experience of getting photos. Back from, um, from developed, and this is showing my age, but we're talking about sort of 2000 getting photos developed that remotely resembled a thing that I tried to frame up. And that was, I suppose, a little spark. Um, really that was on the back burner. I'd maybe had some kind of bridge cameras, um, kind of very casually, but I wouldn't have called it a hobby because as you know, acting is pretty all consuming. And it was towards the end of being an actor, I was, I was experiencing some dissatisfaction and I thought, well, maybe my dissatisfaction is that my non-acting job, the, the legal journalism that I was doing isn't creative enough. You know, I need another creative outlet. So I started doing a bit of photography sort of as a hobby effectively, and I went to photo fusion in Brixton and I did a, a one day a week course in film and darkroom photography. Um, and because I knew I was in interested in portrait show, I. I turned it towards portraiture at every end in turn. And that was it. Really, it was that, that, um, that experience that, that, that lit the fire. Um, although I'd say it smoldered for a while, I, when I stopped being an actor, I actually had it in my head that I was going to become a criminal barrister. So I started training, um, oh wow. Started doing that training and just the camera kept nagging away and nagging away. And, uh, and finally I said, well, all right, I'll, I'll give it a go for six months. This was 2010. I'll give it a go for six months, and at the end of six months, we'll, we'll, we'll see what happens. And, and that was it. So part of your journey was some qualifications, uh, the BIPP equals, uh, just, just talk to me about, uh, about why you chose to take that route and how at the time it was help. Well, if it was helpful for you in, in helping to focus a and give you some kind of tangible steps, step, step up, step forward. Yeah, I think, well, I think because I'd been an actor, because I'd been an a sort of impecunious freelancer for so long, my ambitions when I started being a photographer were, were, were kind of quite practical. I wanted to earn a living, I wanted to be a technical accomplished photographer and a good portraitist. Um, and I didn't, sort of didn't want the risk of being freelance. I wanted the certainty. Um, but it just seemed, particularly in the first couple of years of working when I was a bit more generalist, shooting, whatever anyone would pay me to shoot that there was effort was more proportional to return. As a photographer, you could set out to grow your client base in a year, and you probably would achieve it if you went about it the right way. But what I didn't have was a solid foundation. I'd done this short course at Brixton, but I wasn't technically very accomplished. In fact, I'd say it was. Pretty technically terrible. Uh, both with natural light and with artificial light. Um, and so what I found was not having a lot of connections in the industry or context was that I turned the B-I-P-P-I came across at a trade show and then nested series of qualifications that I censor, the associateship, the fellowship. Provided a really helpful structure as I was shooting. You know, it was probably over a period of about four or five years I did them continuing to develop my business by what became a headshot photography business. Effectively a lot of one-on-one portraits with actors and business people. That this nested qualification series gave me structure, it gave me solidity. It makes you look at your work'cause you have to present for each qualification, a panel of images, and they get assessed. Okay. Learning to turn a critical eye onto your own work and not just be a bit in love with it, but to sort of, to take it apart visually. The things that a student at photography, um, you know, doing a photography degree would be forced to do in slightly different ways. Um, and it's on more in the ongoing professional development kind of model. But that worked for me. It suited my brain. And so I went like, en associateship, associateship. You're having to show a bit of progression, a bit more of an I idea of your, your aesthetic, um, or your, your, your vision. And then the fellowship is much more akin to a sort of a. A personal professional project, you have to originate an idea. It has to be coherent, it has to express, you know, express your vision and show your your skill, and you are given a mentor for that process as well. So I had an amazing photographer called, um, Kevin Wilson, who's a very fine, um, um, kind of fine art wedding photographer and a, and a lovely man. Boot and he was so helpful, so lacking the context, um, in the sort of photographing industry that helped me progress through and sort of start to see myself less as a technician, less as a, um, as a jobing photographer and more as a, as a, I mean, I hesitate to call myself an artist, but more someone who can ex express themselves through the medium of, of photography. Yeah. As an actor, as anyone working in, in the creative industries, I suppose that essence of being freelance, of going from job to job and not necessarily having a great deal of control is one of the reasons why people pivot into other areas of work. And that's a journey that you've been on, this journey that I've been on as well. Uh, and I've wanted to have more control and you know, sometimes that's a part of life. I got married, I had a family, and I had responsibilities and. Sometimes the lifestyle that we might at that point want to lead doesn't support that necessarily. So we find a way to use what we've got our, our ex, our lived experience, and what we might feel our strengths to be to that point and see where else it might take us. That gives us a little bit more of what we might feel we need in the future. At what point did you feel as though you did have that foundation to go, you know what, Michael Wharley photographer, this is actually, I, I, I've now got a concrete step that I'm able to land on that I'm able to jump off of, that I can return back to if I choose to go in different directions. When did you feel as though you had that. Yeah, I think it was a 2017 18 I'd done my fellowship project for the, for the BIPP was a project called Attitudes. It was based on recreating, um, this historical model of acting. Um, it's a bit hard to describe. You can look, find it on my website, but it effectively, there's, there, there's a Victorian model of acting that involved, um, uh, people creating very specific postures that they would actually create on stage. And I have this book of Victorian attitude to sort of be. Fear and anger. Yeah. And all this kind of stuff. Um, and each of the illustrations, the line diagrams would come with a quote from a classic text. So I got 30, 40 actors and I asked them to respond to these emotions, these postures, and recreate them or take a modern variant on them. Um, yeah. And so, and, and the, the whole project was lit with one light and one canvas backdrop, one light and one reflector for speed and efficiency. And because it sort of mirrored the stage lighting of the time, the very binary, dark light stage lighting of, of sort of classic, classic theater. It's amazing. You know, you'd look in the book and their disconsolation and it would be full length and sort of someone. Like that. And you think that's no, no. Modern actor is, is in a, you know, in a theater drama or even on TV, is gonna do that kind of, that kind of posture to express being dis consulate or hopelessness. Um, and this amazing actor called Chris Logan looked at, came in, looked at the book, he sort of went, oh yeah. And did it and lent over. And you, if that's had been the opening scene of Hamlet, you would've totally bought it because he looked utter this utterly disco consulate and lost. And you think, oh, well it's very easy to laugh at the Victorians for their absurd ideas. But actually, you know, there was some, there was some. Truth through line of truth. So that's a long-winded answer, but, um, that project I love, I love that concept co completely buy into the concept intellectually. It's interesting and I haven't seen the images, but I, I totally get the story, the journey, and I want to go and find out more. I, I want to go and take a look at those images as well, just to see these, these postures, these attitudes as, as you described them. And I'll find, I'll find the one of Chris for you that disc consulate. It might be. Constellation. It's, it's remarkable actually, but not my photography so much as what he's doing. But that project also got me a job the next year to shoot a Key Art, which is one of my, not my first, but it was one of the first really good key art jobs for a th touring production of the Weir Con McPhersons the Weir, which is a story. And that was on, that was the shoot where I thought, oh, I'm a photographer. Because we had a cast of four actors and they got some really fantastic actors and they went to town on sorting out the props and the detail and the Guinness glasses and things. And if I do say so myself, I lit it very well. And we shot a lot of images and it turned out to be very lovely image, successful campaign. That image won me, um, a bit Photographer of the Year and a Gold Award in portraiture that year. And that was the moment where I thought, oh, you know what, maybe I'm more than more than a, than a Jobing photographer. And I think equally, as I mentioned with the fellowship, the Bit Fellowship, um, because it is, it makes you, um, go through the process of creating a. Project from beginning to end. It kind of sets the template for doing your own work, doing personal projects as a way to develop and you know, occasionally a job like choir Boy that you mentioned, a commission will be almost as satisfying and will generate recognition and commissions. But my experience has been that the more that you put into personal work, the more you get back. I love that, that line that, that we've mentioned a few times now bet between being on stage, but then, uh, now working with actors who are well. Sometimes on stage actually, that, that's a question. You know, you, you create the key art, as you say. Do you do any production photography? Is that part of your offer or is it more the kind of studio or, or, or set up key art type shoots that you do? No, exclusively that I did a little bit, at the start of my career, I did production photography and I've done some onset stills for film and tv. Okay. Because I, I realized that rapport reportage, it's an incredible skill, that skill of observation and patience and mastery of your kit to respond to a moment, it's, those are incredible skills and there are photographers who really work well in that environment for me. Yeah. Being on a on set for 12 hours and possibly only getting six images that I want to use. It's, it's just not for me. Um, what I prefer is the working in the a Keyo job will, you know, involve the agency, um, the design agency, the client, if you're working on a job. You mentioned Zoe De works on a film poster to shoot last year, um, for a film that's coming out later in the year. So there you've got the Amazon design team, you've got the, the external design team, um, you've got the production as well that you're going in on. So you're in on set, you're building a studio on set, you're working with your team. There's a lot of people involved. And so in terms of your experience as a creative, collaborating with other creatives to realize a complex campaign and on a two hour shoot day to achieve six or seven different concepts, the, the through line, uh, the beginning to end of, of that experience is for me much more satisfying. And of course. Most types of theater are collaborative experiences anyway. You are working as part of a team. You are acting with other people as well and how you describe your work. You are very collaborative with a creative director with, with, with, with the designer and so on, and, and you have a team that works with you. It's not you and a subject. It is sometimes I'm sure, but in your studio you are working with other people planning to, to, to realize that creative vision and then working with someone in post-production as well, retouching as well, just to absolutely just nail that last one or 2%. Right. That's again, the kind of reflection of. What it is to be an actor in most circumstances. Yeah, I think that's right. I think, you know, it's, uh, in terms of what I bring from acting into the world of photography, there's definitely, there's that side of it. There's just understanding how to collaborate. There's a sort of soft skill, which is the ability to, to recognize what an actor might need to bring the performance that they're bringing to a, to a, to a moving image camera on set or in a performance on stage to stills. Um, I think lots of photographers are used to directing models and models are quite self propelling. Um, you know, you pick up the camera and they will do. The, if they're a great model, the eight or 10 different things that they do, and the, the, the endless variety of energy that they bring, and if they're sort of a good model, maybe the four or five things that they can do that they're, are their strengths. Actors tend to be a little bit more, not hesitant, but you've gotta bring them out to themselves a little bit more. And I've found particularly when you are asking them to, to, um, to bring what they're doing, say on camera to a stills camera, you need to find some, some words or a, or a language that allows them to translate effectively. And, and certainly in moving images as well, it knowing what the start is, you know, there's the stereotype of a director shouting action, right? And people going, oh, now now's my turn to start acting. But actually what you, what you learn very quickly is that that kind of inciting moment, that how you say action or in your own time or when you are ready, that that kind of thing that you give to whoever is in front of your camera, that gives them, ah, now I start. Just the nature of how you deliver that can change the nature of how the performer responds to you and how you get the image, the connection with the actor and the camera. Yeah, I think that's right. I think it's, I mean, it's, it is in, in essence, it's the same as any portrait show, right? Like it's a conversation, um, across the ether between you, um, between two people or between however many people you're photographing. But I think a good portrait involves a genuine connection between the photographer and, and the sitter. Um, that you get something more truthful outta them by, by letting someone find themselves on camera, but with actors. Absolutely a hundred percent the, the right, the right word, the right nudge, the right idea. Um, giving them the space to, to inhabit and, and be for a stills camera when it often feels like they're, you know, um, I mean, I've had actors, you know, you show them a, a board of what you want to achieve, and they're like, why? I'm gonna be, you want me to be happy? You want me to be sad? Like, I'm not a marionette? You know? And he said, oh, no, it's, it's not like that. You know, we need you to, we need you to do what you're doing on set, but just find the moments, be stiller with it. Be truthful to the character, but be with this camera here. Yeah. I. You've got a wonderful variety in, in the work that you do, just from the jobs that you've mentioned there. We haven't spoken about your project work outside of, of commissions, uh, and that there's some similarities, obviously in, in the types of work that you do, but then there's also a, a different flexing of the creative muscles as well. One of the projects that struck my mind through looking through your portfolio was the, uh, project that you did with classical photographers on the, on the Brixton streets, the, uh, classic beats, classical beats on Brixton streets. Tell us about that one, because that was another project of yours that was very well received. Yes, I, well, thank you. It was, um, that was a really, that was another really joyful project and, and actually, you know, some ideas you cogitate on for, for ages and, and this, and this one just met me walking down the street. So, um, the Bricks and Chamber Orchestra is a group, um, of classical musicians. They tend to all be quite young. I mean, it's still going now. They, they, they tend to be musicians at the start of their careers who are maybe freelancing around deping for orchestras and doing freelance gigs here and there, and they'll. They come together and play, um, with the Bricks and Chamber orchestra, which tours a program of classical music around the estates in the borough of Lambeth. And they'll tend to do an hour long gig and they'll do some classical music and then they'll, they'll lay down some beats and like a grime or a hip hop, local grime or hip hop and mc will come and sort of do their thing over the top. Um, just sounds very Brixton. It's super Brixton, but it's correct. It's, it's lovely, you know, and if you want to complain about Brixton gentrification, you definitely can, but as far as I'm concerned, that is a, that's a beautiful expression of, of, of, um, social change in a, in a positive way. But yeah, so I was just out. Walking down the street one day and they were doing a marching band fundraiser. So the project just literally walked into my lap and you've got these beautiful mass, you know, sousaphone and a trombone and mm-hmm. And marching TROs such energy, such vibrant, such very personalities in, in the orchestra on the streets of Brixton, which are already quite vibrant and enthusiastic. And, uh, and I thought, well, I've gotta shoot these people. So I got in touch with them, and we did. It was actually only a couple of shoot days, but I, what was important to me, and I've lived in Brixton for about 20 years, uh, and I've done little projects here and there on the edges. It's never really quite felt like my place to tell a story about, because there's communities here, you know, who it belongs to. And, and, and that's not necessarily me. And, and I think that issue of gentrification is, is always hanging around, you know, that I'm aware, I'm part of, but this was. Really, it was just such a positive project and we tied in, we made very carefully Sure to tie in the locations we chose with the social and demographic history of Brixton. So we shot on Electric Avenue, we shot on um, Railton Road, which is the center of the riots, um, the frontline of the riots in 1982. And what we wanted to show was, um, the. Diversity, the kind of beauty, the calm of the Brixton streets. We got a shot of the Bowie Memorial, um, through trees with a, with a cellist, which I'm sure we can flash up, but cellist standing there and you know, you are, you are, if you just pan the camera left, you're on the Brixton High Road and there's the station and all the, all the ferrara that's there every day. But the, on this angle, you've got sort of a silver iddle, effectively with beautiful sunlight playing across it. So I wanted to show people, um, not, uh, uh, sanitized Brixton because we've got some grit. We've got, um, some dark archways and we've got some, some tougher bits as well. Um, but to show them the, the beauty of the place, because I still think there's a, you say, oh, I live in Brixton, and people say, oh, it's a bit rough down there, isn't it? And you think, well, that's a, that's an attitude that's got its roots in something a long time ago. And it's a, it's a beautifully vibrant place now. Lambeth is one of the most diverse borrowers in the country, so hopefully we capture the little bit of it in that project. Finally for now, what, what, what's next? Um, I mean, in terms of the, the work, you've got some great work, some great commissions coming in. It feels as though you're able to flex your creative muscles, like I say, with, with the personal projects as well. Mm-hmm. Uh, are, are there any area areas where you are. Looking to, uh, maybe put a little bit more emphasis to, in order to ensure that you are able to set those creative needs while still earning the money that we all need to earn? Yeah, of course. I mean, I think, yeah, absolutely. I've had a little bit of a reckoning over this summer, to be honest, you know, not to, and, and it's important to say, you know, the way that you've very kindly presented how my career seems to be, sounds like in a sort of un unbridled pathway of, of success. But it's definitely not that, and I've probably had a period over this summer where I've questioned what I'm doing as a photographer and why I'm taking images, um, what I'm taking them for, because it has been a while since I've done a, a, a per, I mean, that Brixton project is sort of two or three years ago now, and it's been a while since I've been moved to, to do a project. And, and I've realized after this. Sort of process of thinking this summer? Oh, it's just time to, to make myself do something new. You know, I think there's only so often you can go to the well, um, in support of commissions and it's great when the commissions flow in, but the only way to stay alive and vibrant and connected and doing work that's gonna get you commissioned, um, is, is the personal project. So it's more personal stuff. And I think it's, it's getting away that historically I've done a lot of personal stuff that's to do with people in place, like real people in real places. Um, because my professional work, my commercial work tends to be more, to be more entertainment based, but I'm thinking, I'm thinking something a little bit more. What I really wanna do if I say Martin Par crossed with Alex Prager and Gregory K. Crude and humor. Humor and Dr. Yes. And honor. Yeah, that sounds very exciting. Well, I wish you all the very best, uh, with, with that, thank you for speaking with us today on the podcast. Thank you for your, for your candor and, and your humility, uh, and just sharing some of the stories and, and really laying bare your experience of going from one career to another career where, where you're, where you're clearly, clearly flourishing, but still feel as though there's more things that you want to do. Michael Wharley, thank you very much. Thank you. Big thanks to Michael for joining us. Links to his website and socials in the podcast show notes. This month, Fuji Kina London, Fujikina, global Photography Festival. Comes to the Capitol for the first time with masterclass workshops, photo walks, talks and exhibitions taking place across eight days and two weekends. I spoke with Fuji Films, Amy Bates to find out more. Ji Kenar is a photography festival for all creatives, so it's open to absolutely everyone and anyone. You don't even have to be a Fiji film user, whether you are a beginner or an expert. It's really an opportunity to celebrate all kinds of photography with all creatives. Sounds great. And it's coming to London for the first time. It's been going for a few years now. I think I saw eight on the press release, but this is the first time that it's coming to London. So what's gonna be different about this edition, if you like, of Fujikina? What can, what can, visitors to London and the various little hubs that, that you have, that events are taking place out, what can they expect? Yeah, so it's been all around Europe that, like you said, first time coming to London and. We wanted to go even bigger and better. Um, so we are actually doing ours over eight days and we've got a jam packed schedule, so many talks, seminars, we've got panel discussions, photo walks, master classes, like there's so much going on. Um, and it's really an opportunity for everyone to get involved and learn something new. Um, we've got over 45 different speakers attending, so expert photographers from, from so many different genres of photography. It's just a really good opportunity to come and learn something new, get involved, um, have a play around with Kit as well. We're gonna have all of our product specialists there so you can get hands on with all of our different digital cameras and also our Instax products as well. We've got, um, also really unique opportunity where you can book a one-to-one session with a photographer so you can come along, have a portfolio review, share your work with them, and get some insights and tips as well, uh, personalized to you, which is really exciting. Within our master classes, we've got lots of different studio sessions. So we have our house of photography in Covent Garden. That's gonna be like the main hub for most of our, um, master classes and our photo walks as well. So we've got, um, a macro workshop. We've got portraiture. Um, we've got one that's really lovely. We've got a newborn photography workshop as well. Oh, cool. Um, there's so much going on. There's, um, there's one that is specifically, um, about, uh, theater and stage. So that's gonna be capturing, uh, west End Stars portraiture. One that I think will be really cool, um, is a workshop with Latif and he's gonna be doing food styling photography. Um, so that's gonna be really interactive and hands-on. Um, in terms of photo walks, we've got loads of amazing photographers leading those. So we've got. Big names like Mr. Whisper. Um, we've got Josh Ed Goose, who does amazing colorful street photography. We are also doing special instax photo walks as well. So they're gonna be led by some of our, um, ambassadors. Um, so we'll be capturing, uh, the streets of London on Instax, which will be really cool as well. We've got, um, magnum photographers, Olivia, Arthur, and Mark Power, so they're gonna be talking about a project that they're doing with us, um, called A World in Color. We've, we've spoken with both Olivia and with Mark at the Photographer show in the past as well. They're both, uh, terrific, terrific photographers and really generous with their, with their time and with their, their knowledge sharing as well. So, uh, it's, it's cracking that you've got them involved at Fujina. Yeah, so they're both doing a special project with us, um, and it's going to be in the form of a gallery at the House of Photography. So on the first floor we're gonna have a special exhibition, um, where they've basically pulled old Magnum slides and then recreated some of those images in their own way. So it'll be telling stories from the uk. Um, so that's gonna be a really amazing exhibition and you'll be able to get entry to that as part of your future Keena ticket as well. The event's gonna be held across three locations in Covent Garden, so it's gonna be super accessible for everyone to get to. Um, we've obviously got our main hub, which is the future film, house of photography that will act as our normal retail space where you can try out different products. We'll also have our gallery there, um, that we'll also be hosting two other venues. So we have the stables, which is just around the corner. That's where we'll have all of our activation zones. Um, we've also got a. Life as you see it, exhibition there. So you can print your own photos and put them up on the wall for everyone to see. Mm-hmm. We've got a few competitions going on as well, so there's competition to borrow an X half and submit your photo to win an X half camera as well. And then finally we've got the Conduit hotel, which is where we'll be hosting all of our talks and panel discussions. So everything's nice and easy to get to just within a few minutes. Walk from Covent Garden Station. How can people find out more? Where do people go to book some tickets to make sure that they do bag some time with these titans of photography and uh, and, and some of these hands-on sessions. Yeah, so all the information is available on the Future Film UK website or you can find it through our socials. Um, you get so much included in your general admission ticket. So with that, you get access to all of our seminars and panel discussions. You get free kit loans, um, a free sensor cleaning. You get access to the Magnum Gallery and also the one-to-one meet the expert sessions, as well as all of our other touch and try and hands-on opportunities. Um, we're also gonna have live demo shooting areas. Um, so we're gonna have activations where we'll have models, so you can try out different kit. Um, and we've also got some support from some other partners as well. So we're gonna have capture one there. We've got a three legged thing. We've got Ellen Crom, so those people are gonna be supporting as well, so you can have a look at their kit while you're there. And yeah, if you wanted to upgrade your kit, we do have spaces still available on some of our photo walks and workshops as well. Hopefully there's something for everybody. Sounds like you've got pretty much all bases covered. We'll make sure we put the link into the show notes, uh, for this episode of the podcast as well. Before I let you go, Amy, obviously you've spoken about all of the amazing things that you guys have got set up for Fuji kina later on this month. What are you most excited about? I'm, I'm not asking you to choose favorites necessarily, but what, what are you most excited to see happen before you when Fuji Kina finally does open its shutters later on in September? So I'm personally really excited for the Sunday, the 21st, um, because on that day we are gonna be hosting a special panel discussion about women in photography, which I'm gonna be hosting. Um, I'm very excited about that. I've never hosted a panel before, so I'm a little bit nervous. Um, and then, yeah, so that's gonna be a really important conversation. Um, we've got some amazing women on the panel and also in that evening we are going to be hosting a special networking event for women as well. All the best with, uh, hosting the panel session on that Sunday. Amy. Thank you very much. Thank you. And a couple of bits of admin before we go today. You may have noticed that this season, the podcast is also on YouTube, the full show, all of the interviews, glorious technicolor. Uh, so head over there and subscribe if you want to see some of what we're talking about as well as hear it, we are flashing up photos where we can, where we're allowed and all that good stuff there. So youtube.com/at uk photo show. That's right, there's an at symbol just like you'd use in an email in the web address there, youtube.com. At UK photo show or just search, you'll find us on there as well. I'm sure on Instagram. We are at the Photography show. I am at David McClelland tv on there. DM me if you want to get in touch the photography and video shows on Facebook as well. And if you want to drop us a good old fashioned text message, then you can just tap on the link in your show notes from your podcast. App works best on your mobile. A reminder that the in-person photography and video show returns to the NEC in Birmingham. That's right, people. We are back to Birmingham between the 14th and 17th of March, 2026. So about six months away now. Crikey. Uh, so head over to the photography show.com. That's. Photography show.com for more details on that. As they are announced, there's a handy email signup form on there so you can be the first to know about speakers about ticket details and so on. We'll be back on the first Thursday of next month. That's October with more photography and video news and chat. But for now, from all of us here, bye-bye.

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David McClelland

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James Artaius

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